New Players stats v last years leavers

Slartibartfast

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #1
A month ago some of the new players were being criticised. In fact some still are. There were a few comments saying that they were not upgrades on the players that left. As Christmas approaches the new players have had time to settle in so I thought I would compare their stats to the players who departed at the end of last season. These stats compare total points scored last season v points scored so far. It looks like by Christmas the new players total points will exceed that scored by last season players for the whole season. I mean no disrespect to last years players. They all did a role and it may have not been scoring points. However to me this is a fair indicator that this years team is an upgrade on last years team. I think they are doing a great job in a league that has improved and in a club whose fans expectations have also increased.


Last years players season stats
David Brine 12 points
Pat Bordeleau 10 points
Scott Hotham 23 points
Chris Culligan 14 points
Denny Kearney 5 points (in 11 games)
Guillame Doucet 33 points
Chris Jones 2 points
99 points

This seasons new players stats so far
Matt Pope 22 points
Paul Crowder 18 points
Drew Paris 16 points
Justin Faryna 11 points
Bryce Reddick 8 points
Tyson Strachan 4 points
Craig Moore 1 point (injured)
80 points
 

ASHIPP

Well-Known Member
#3
Some of these comparisons are not realistic - points production is not the only measure of a players' performance. Many of these guys played specific roles and would not be expected to put up many points.
eg David Brine - an awesome defensive forward, anchor on the pk, face-off specialist not expected to put up lots of points

Chris Culligan - the league's best 2-way forward for the previous three seasons. Last season spent as much time on defence as he did the forward lines, was injured and sat out many games in player rotation

Patrick Bordeleau - brought in for initimidation not points. Performed his role well and great on the pk

Tyson Strachan - our player with the highest level of experience this season. A blue line defensive defenceman expected to police the defensive zone and shut down the opposition

Justin Faryna - an explosive, gritty forward whose role is to muscle and create space. Blighted by 2 episodes of injury this season. His points production would otherwise be much higher.
 

kingmo19.1

Well-Known Member
#4
Bruce Forsyth once said .... "What do point's make"? and the audience would scream "prizes"!
That's not always the case in Ice Hockey!
Last years team won 3 prizes.
Will be interesting to see what this years team end up with.
(We could play a game of higher or lower at this point, but wise not too I feel :) )
 
#5
I’ve not commented on players performance, don’t really care. Don’t see the point in this, our position in the league is more important.


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Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#6
But last years players accumulated 99 points, this years players 80 points. Forgive me for my ignorance, but last years players accumulated 19 more points than this years. I’ve not commented on players performance, don’t really care.


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99 points was end of year points, 80 are points so far, does that explain things.
 

backrow

Active Member
#8
I don't think the point totals above include goals and assists from Challenge Cup and Playoff games. However, it's a bad mistake to judge a player's contribution based only on point totals. I remember 2 huge blocked shots in the last minute of last year's Challenge Cup Championship game as an example.
Basically, the players who get all the power play time are expected to put up the biggest point totals. I personally would love to see the plus / minus numbers for the last few seasons as well. They aren't perfect but I think they help indicate players who take great pride in their defensive play. Checking lines can play a huge role in the games outcome without scoring a single goal. Teams are successful when all the players excel in their role whatever that is, especially when there are injuries to deal with.
Hopefully, all the players on this year's team are starting to feel very comfortable in their roles and are playing with confidence and purpose!
 

Outsider

Active Member
#9
I don't think the point totals above include goals and assists from Challenge Cup and Playoff games. However, it's a bad mistake to judge a player's contribution based only on point totals. I remember 2 huge blocked shots in the last minute of last year's Challenge Cup Championship game as an example.
Basically, the players who get all the power play time are expected to put up the biggest point totals. I personally would love to see the plus / minus numbers for the last few seasons as well. They aren't perfect but I think they help indicate players who take great pride in their defensive play. Checking lines can play a huge role in the games outcome without scoring a single goal. Teams are successful when all the players excel in their role whatever that is, especially when there are injuries to deal with.
Hopefully, all the players on this year's team are starting to feel very comfortable in their roles and are playing with confidence and purpose!
The plus/minus stat is the worst stat in hockey . It is a team stat pinned on an individual player. Example, a center loses a faceoff and it's in the net shortly afterwords, the other players get a minus even after all they all did their job , they get a minus . Fair ??? A goalie gives up a bad goal, all 5 players get a minus. Is that fair ??? A defenceman gives a bad pass and it's in the net, the other 4 get a minus . Fair ?? Point is, it's a bad stat and coaches know who can play the crucial times in a game, they don't a BS stat to tell them who's good defensively
 

jenks33

Well-Known Member
#10
Nah sorry I’m not buying this. I think even Lordo knows he didn’t quite get recruitment right over the summer. Personally I’d take Doucet, Kearney, Culligan, S. Hotham over some of our newbies. We’re in a fantastic position at the moment but our best players are still the usual suspects Hotham, Martin, Haddad etc
 

backrow

Active Member
#11
Outsider, I acknowledged that they weren't perfect but I think it would be a mistake to dismiss them completely and I really don't think coaches do that.
When a center loses a defensive zone faceoff all the other players have jobs to do to prevent a goal so I don't think it's quite that simple. Your examples of unfair minuses are often balanced out in some ways by pluses that some players receive when they haven't really contributed to a goal on a particular play.
Coaches really show their belief in the defensive capabilities of players in their penalty killing and late game player selections.
I just thought it would be interesting to see those stats for the last few seasons. Maybe the Devils don't even keep them?
 
#12
Outsider, I acknowledged that they weren't perfect but I think it would be a mistake to dismiss them completely and I really don't think coaches do that.
When a center loses a defensive zone faceoff all the other players have jobs to do to prevent a goal so I don't think it's quite that simple. Your examples of unfair minuses are often balanced out in some ways by pluses that some players receive when they haven't really contributed to a goal on a particular play.
Coaches really show their belief in the defensive capabilities of players in their penalty killing and late game player selections.
I just thought it would be interesting to see those stats for the last few seasons. Maybe the Devils don't even keep them?
You made my argument and are saying the same thing i'm saying. Coaches do know who plays in crucial defensive situations and I said that in my first post and if unfair minuses, as you say often balance out the pluses then this stat is not a good stat. If you can have a stat where it shows that a particular players is solely responsible for a goal for or against then i'm all for it and it might be a better stat but when you have 5 other people on the ice that you have no control over then it's a BS stat. And if the stat isn't perfect as you have acknowledged then why have it or use it .So as much as we might want to see it, it's uselss. Can you imagine if Joey Martin had 3 PP goals and was on the ice for 3 against even strength, you have some Devils fans saying " I know he had 3 goals but he was a minus 3 ." One last point, most good teams have the majority of their players being on the plus side and bad teams players usually are minus, no matter how good a player is defensively.
 

ASHIPP

Well-Known Member
#13
Nah sorry I’m not buying this. I think even Lordo knows he didn’t quite get recruitment right over the summer. Personally I’d take Doucet, Kearney, Culligan, S. Hotham over some of our newbies. We’re in a fantastic position at the moment but our best players are still the usual suspects Hotham, Martin, Haddad etc
In defence of Pope and Faryna, they have both had lengthy spells of injury, as has Asselin. Was Drew Paris touted as a prolific scorer? I only remember reading he is utilised on the pp, has a strong shot and likes jumping into the offensive play.
As for Doucet and Kearney, they are the top line 'go to' guys at MKL who have developed a great chemistry....something they didn't manage at the Devils. Because Kearney was only here for 8 weeks, and Douce never really found consistency irrespective of who his linemates were.
Still think he is a very skilled forward....and very popular here.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
#14
Nah sorry I’m not buying this. I think even Lordo knows he didn’t quite get recruitment right over the summer. Personally I’d take Doucet, Kearney, Culligan, S. Hotham over some of our newbies. We’re in a fantastic position at the moment but our best players are still the usual suspects Hotham, Martin, Haddad etc
But how do you know that those players were even available to come back? He only got it wrong if those players were available to come back in the first place.

Whilst some additions haven't been as strong as we had hoped it doesn't mean it's a mistake. It just might be the best available option within resources. For example S Hotham may have been cheaper just purely for the fact he wanted a final season with his brother. Culligan was unproven before coming here, again makes him a bit cheaper. We might've just been a bit luckier before. But Kearney I wasn't particularly impressed with. I wouldn't bring him back for anyone we signed over the summer. With the exception of Scott Hotham and Culligan I think it's a sweeping upgrade across the board. The league is just better and for the first time in years we've struggled with injuries.
 

jenks33

Well-Known Member
#15
But how do you know that those players were even available to come back? He only got it wrong if those players were available to come back in the first place.

Whilst some additions haven't been as strong as we had hoped it doesn't mean it's a mistake. It just might be the best available option within resources. For example S Hotham may have been cheaper just purely for the fact he wanted a final season with his brother. Culligan was unproven before coming here, again makes him a bit cheaper. We might've just been a bit luckier before. But Kearney I wasn't particularly impressed with. I wouldn't bring him back for anyone we signed over the summer. With the exception of Scott Hotham and Culligan I think it's a sweeping upgrade across the board. The league is just better and for the first time in years we've struggled with injuries.
I'm not saying they were available to come back. I was just comparing this years new signings to the players that left us over the summer. For me (at the moment) I would still take most of last years non returning players to this seasons new players. Like I said though that's my opinion at the moment. I didn't rate Ulmer or Bentivoglio before Christmas last year and they really turned it on from January.
 

backrow

Active Member
#16
Outsider, you have to admit that it's strange that the NHL, AHL, CHL and CIS leagues to name just a few, all keep and make available the plus / minus stats for their players, if they have no value what so ever?
 
#17
It’s a team sport, so +/- highlights the teams issue to a point. Let’s face it top lines tend not to have “issues”, all players on that line contribute to insure mistakes are minimal. Lesser teams tend to contain players or coaches unhappy about this state, usually due to poor recruitment or player retention, it’s an excuse a player or coach may use to negate responsibility and to a point may be correct, if a player finds he is on a line of poorer players. The point of +/- is to achieve as a team.


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jimmy snels

Well-Known Member
#18
If you think brine and bordy have been upgraded i think your missing the whole point of their role defensively, pk and checking. Its not all about goals. And i agree the plus/minus stat doesnt tell a full story.
For me doucet and keerney moving on was the right decision. Some of the others may have been correct but the replacements for some, for me, have proven not to be upgrades in any way.

Its all about opinions i guess.
 

pjj365

Well-Known Member
#19
It’s a team sport, so +/- highlights the teams issue to a point. Let’s face it top lines tend not to have “issues”, all players on that line contribute to insure mistakes are minimal. Lesser teams tend to contain players or coaches unhappy about this state, usually due to poor recruitment or player retention, it’s an excuse a player or coach may use to negate responsibility and to a point may be correct, if a player finds he is on a line of poorer players. The point of +/- is to achieve as a team.
Corsi and Fenwick are meant to be better than +/- but like all stats really reflect team performance.

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