The future of the EIHL
- Thread starter DevilDan
- Start date
certainly
as found....here about half way down.
It no longer says its specifically an EU employment issue but it did when it was first released.
and on UEFA:
as found here The important difference between our rule and the UEFA rule (which to the best of my knowledge hasnt been tested in court) is the bits ive highlighted in bold print.
We are going round in circles a bit i think here, my personal opinion is that forcing teams to take on British players that arent up to the standard of their import collegues....and then paying them more for the privledge isnt going to in the long term have the affect that everyone thinks, and to improve the national team, you have to invest the money in at younger age groups and have a much better youth set up. The problem is, the big teams (and i mean 1-8 EIHL and maybe a few in EPL) dont have money to be throwing at youth teams when who knows whats happening next season let alone 5-10 years down the line.
In my experience, (i coached a couple of junior hockey teams back in belfast) the age group 16-21 is where the VAST VAST majority of leakage from the talent pool takes place. I have several ideas of how to stop this leakage and one of the teams back home has actually taken 1 of the most obvious, but hardest to implement and ran with it.....getting hockey into schools, in this case it was Inline Hockey rather than ice but the principle stands.
anyway this is getting off on a bit of a rant so ill snip it here for now
as found....here about half way down.
It no longer says its specifically an EU employment issue but it did when it was first released.
and on UEFA:
as found here The important difference between our rule and the UEFA rule (which to the best of my knowledge hasnt been tested in court) is the bits ive highlighted in bold print.
We are going round in circles a bit i think here, my personal opinion is that forcing teams to take on British players that arent up to the standard of their import collegues....and then paying them more for the privledge isnt going to in the long term have the affect that everyone thinks, and to improve the national team, you have to invest the money in at younger age groups and have a much better youth set up. The problem is, the big teams (and i mean 1-8 EIHL and maybe a few in EPL) dont have money to be throwing at youth teams when who knows whats happening next season let alone 5-10 years down the line.
In my experience, (i coached a couple of junior hockey teams back in belfast) the age group 16-21 is where the VAST VAST majority of leakage from the talent pool takes place. I have several ideas of how to stop this leakage and one of the teams back home has actually taken 1 of the most obvious, but hardest to implement and ran with it.....getting hockey into schools, in this case it was Inline Hockey rather than ice but the principle stands.
anyway this is getting off on a bit of a rant so ill snip it here for now
While I disagree about the import limits (although I am slightly more passionate about a wage cap :lol: ) I think you are totally right here.
We need to be getting into schools and the community (like the DCF seem to be doing quite effectively). I would like to see all the organisations that govern skate hockey to start working together more effectivly. Why aren't there more links between IHUK and BIPHA?
We should be seeing a vibrant school roller hockey league system, and this then feeding into a schools ice hockey program.
Get them whilst they are young, and they are ours forever Look at the Brits we have who came through our junior program - and thinking how good they are, think of all those we missed out on.
We need to be getting into schools and the community (like the DCF seem to be doing quite effectively). I would like to see all the organisations that govern skate hockey to start working together more effectivly. Why aren't there more links between IHUK and BIPHA?
We should be seeing a vibrant school roller hockey league system, and this then feeding into a schools ice hockey program.
Get them whilst they are young, and they are ours forever
Look at the Brits we have who came through our junior program - and thinking how good they are, think of all those we missed out on.there are as many problems in the world of Inline Hockey as there are in ice hockey BIPHA GB Inline both proclaim to be the official governing body of inline both are registered with IIHF. In northern ireland we made the decision last season to move from GBI to BIPHA, there was plenty of detailed reasons, the main one was BIPHA is reconised by the sports council and so by being members of that we could apply for funding from the NIO, we could apply but it seems we couldnt actually get the funding because......there is conflicting information as to who is the governing body of the sport in the UK.
If you had the money....and patience then getting a proper governing body who could orgainse junior structures, the senior national team, and tie the 2 main versions of the game (ice and inline) together, and govern the professional leagues then i would say that would be a good place to start. Of course olympic ice hockey is governed by IIHF and most inline leagues are too, but then you have NARCH who are kinda like the NHL of inline and have their own rules, and FIRS who are putting forward a bid to make inline hockey an olympic sport, so its way more complicated than just the UK and Ireland.
But i digress.
oh stubbs, i fully hear you on the wage cap, a fully enforced wage cap is going to do more to sustain a league than restricting the numbers of relatively cheap imports. Dont get me mistaken im not in favour of a return to ISL cheque book hockey. I just find the way the top brits can dictate their wages in some case FAR beyond what they are worth slightly perplexing
If you had the money....and patience then getting a proper governing body who could orgainse junior structures, the senior national team, and tie the 2 main versions of the game (ice and inline) together, and govern the professional leagues then i would say that would be a good place to start. Of course olympic ice hockey is governed by IIHF and most inline leagues are too, but then you have NARCH who are kinda like the NHL of inline and have their own rules, and FIRS who are putting forward a bid to make inline hockey an olympic sport, so its way more complicated than just the UK and Ireland.
But i digress.
oh stubbs, i fully hear you on the wage cap, a fully enforced wage cap is going to do more to sustain a league than restricting the numbers of relatively cheap imports. Dont get me mistaken im not in favour of a return to ISL cheque book hockey. I just find the way the top brits can dictate their wages in some case FAR beyond what they are worth slightly perplexing
While writing an overly complicated reply yesterday, I got a phone call offering me a new job and lost my train of thought. On re-reading what I had written, I came to realise that I have been missing the point and was actually beginning to prove to myself that the import limits, regardless of legality, is infact largely irrelivent if a wage cap is enforced, within a successful structure.
So yes I agree, remove the import restrictions and everything will find a level which is good for all, IF the league owners see that enforcing the wage agreement is good of the league and ALL the players within it and cheque book Hockey will fail yet again.
So I apologise for going way off the point of this thread and into the import question and I go back to my original answer to the thread, we have to focus on the governance of the sport, thats what is causing the problems, everything else is a bit of a smoke screen
So yes I agree, remove the import restrictions and everything will find a level which is good for all, IF the league owners see that enforcing the wage agreement is good of the league and ALL the players within it and cheque book Hockey will fail yet again.
So I apologise for going way off the point of this thread and into the import question and I go back to my original answer to the thread, we have to focus on the governance of the sport, thats what is causing the problems, everything else is a bit of a smoke screen
Problem is inline hockey despite looking very similar to ice hockey actually very different and just because someone plays one its not certain they will play the other.
There's also another governing body for inline hockey called bisha which is ball hockey and as a game is a little closer due to having checking which gbi and bipha don't.
I doubt many pe teachers would enjoy coaching it due to the amount of potential scuffles that could occur plus the startup costs for kit are far higher than football/rugby!
There's also another governing body for inline hockey called bisha which is ball hockey and as a game is a little closer due to having checking which gbi and bipha don't.
I doubt many pe teachers would enjoy coaching it due to the amount of potential scuffles that could occur plus the startup costs for kit are far higher than football/rugby!
Although there are differences, they are similar enough to act as a gateway from one to the other. With the limited ice availability in the UK, it is making the best of a good job.
Very true about the barriers to entry for schools - but that is what the UK governing bodies should be working to overcome/smooth. I doubt we will find kids doing roller hockey in PE, but there is no reason it couldn't find its way into an out of school activity. Get a vibrant schools league going, and it could really help.
Very true about the barriers to entry for schools - but that is what the UK governing bodies should be working to overcome/smooth. I doubt we will find kids doing roller hockey in PE, but there is no reason it couldn't find its way into an out of school activity. Get a vibrant schools league going, and it could really help.
Firstly the EIHL is what it is. If it's going to be anything more then it has to appeal to the mass, then, the actual Rinks have to improve capacity wise to accomadate a greater league.
It's possible but the investment needed would be massive.
First thing the marketing of the EIHL needs to be done correctly with a professional body running it. Sorry I know it's a simsy bash, but he is not upto the task needed to make the transition. Sky is key here, but then based on previous years we don't just want to see Sheffield or Nottingham games. With good marketing and visibility to the public done through all media it should create awreness. There ae still to many people who don't even know there is a Professional Ice hockey League. Also with Sky involvements comes more cash to filter through the rest of the Game. The amount of people who called me when The Devil's V Hull fight was on TV. It doesn't take a lot to gain awareness. Nearly everybody watches Sky sports new and a 30 second round up every couple of hours isn't asking a lot.
Secondly I would remove the Sheffield power house and bring in an elite panel made up of 1 person from each team to look after Disciplinary, fixtures etc.... Let the marketing company look after the commercial aspects and the Panel look after the devlopment, and it has to be based on NHL rules. There is suspicion about how it's run and this needs to be removed. If a team is disciplined then the individual on the panel cannot be involved in the discipline. I know it's not perfect but at least it's a start. The Level of officiating needs to come upto scratch as well. Refs should not be able to offiiciate in a game involving their home team.
Thirdly The rinks have to come upto scratch for entertainment and capacity. I know this could be contraversial but every team in the league should have their own rink. No more fixture changes because a pop group needs to use it. Football would never change it's fixtures etc.. By having own rinks it creates a club feel, and in addition when events come along like Hockeyfest or The play Off's they are at rink we consider to be the National stadium.. Create a Milleneum / Wembley feel.
We all love this game, but we need to make the next transition..
It's possible but the investment needed would be massive.
First thing the marketing of the EIHL needs to be done correctly with a professional body running it. Sorry I know it's a simsy bash, but he is not upto the task needed to make the transition. Sky is key here, but then based on previous years we don't just want to see Sheffield or Nottingham games. With good marketing and visibility to the public done through all media it should create awreness. There ae still to many people who don't even know there is a Professional Ice hockey League. Also with Sky involvements comes more cash to filter through the rest of the Game. The amount of people who called me when The Devil's V Hull fight was on TV. It doesn't take a lot to gain awareness. Nearly everybody watches Sky sports new and a 30 second round up every couple of hours isn't asking a lot.
Secondly I would remove the Sheffield power house and bring in an elite panel made up of 1 person from each team to look after Disciplinary, fixtures etc.... Let the marketing company look after the commercial aspects and the Panel look after the devlopment, and it has to be based on NHL rules. There is suspicion about how it's run and this needs to be removed. If a team is disciplined then the individual on the panel cannot be involved in the discipline. I know it's not perfect but at least it's a start. The Level of officiating needs to come upto scratch as well. Refs should not be able to offiiciate in a game involving their home team.
Thirdly The rinks have to come upto scratch for entertainment and capacity. I know this could be contraversial but every team in the league should have their own rink. No more fixture changes because a pop group needs to use it. Football would never change it's fixtures etc.. By having own rinks it creates a club feel, and in addition when events come along like Hockeyfest or The play Off's they are at rink we consider to be the National stadium.. Create a Milleneum / Wembley feel.
We all love this game, but we need to make the next transition..
I agree with most of what you say Bubbles. Trouble with most of what needs to be done is where to start?
I am personally sceptical of a league that has a board made up of the owners of the clubs within it (plus a few EPL owners as well, if I remember correctly). I would prefer to see a board made up like Bubbles suggested. Yes, the owners should have a forum - but in terms of league structures etc, each owner has an agenda outside of developing hockey.
I would also like to see the disciplinary committee and refereeing opened up. This again links into the lack of media coverage, but we should expect more comment from Mr French about dubious calls. Try to make it more open and transparent.
Media coverage is a hard one. I think we need the oxygen of publicity more than broadcasting revenue - and I would love to see hockey on the free to air TV rather than Sky, because it would be more likely to receive a larger viewing base. A Match of the Day style program (like the NHL's On The Fly would also be nice, and perhaps a better marketing option than full matches).
But, 30 seconds on the news in the sport of all the hockey scores, just after the football and the rugby. It often annoys me that BBC radio (4 in my case, I am old before my time) often cover minority sports in the morning, like triathlon - but hockey doesn't even get a mention around the Cup or Playoffs. Should our press office be working harder? Do we have a press office?
I am personally sceptical of a league that has a board made up of the owners of the clubs within it (plus a few EPL owners as well, if I remember correctly). I would prefer to see a board made up like Bubbles suggested. Yes, the owners should have a forum - but in terms of league structures etc, each owner has an agenda outside of developing hockey.
I would also like to see the disciplinary committee and refereeing opened up. This again links into the lack of media coverage, but we should expect more comment from Mr French about dubious calls. Try to make it more open and transparent.
Media coverage is a hard one. I think we need the oxygen of publicity more than broadcasting revenue - and I would love to see hockey on the free to air TV rather than Sky, because it would be more likely to receive a larger viewing base. A Match of the Day style program (like the NHL's On The Fly would also be nice, and perhaps a better marketing option than full matches).
But, 30 seconds on the news in the sport of all the hockey scores, just after the football and the rugby. It often annoys me that BBC radio (4 in my case, I am old before my time) often cover minority sports in the morning, like triathlon - but hockey doesn't even get a mention around the Cup or Playoffs. Should our press office be working harder? Do we have a press office?
I think from a media point of view, there is never going to be national terestrial coverage, but local coverage in areas where Hockey has a strong base should be possible. As I found out working at the BBC its not simple even to get things shown on local news, but it should be possible in time if we are able to continue to raise our profile and become a significant part of sport in Cardiff (which we are still some way off) and in the other areas where there are EIHL Hockey teams.
The structure and the officiating need to be sorted first though and everyone will have to work together for one purpose, thats where we have to start, because the media will see straight through the weaknesses that we have at present and that would do us more harm than good. The Broadcasters are not out there just looking for an opportunity to pick up Hockey, far from it, we will have to prove to them that it is worth them investing, which will not be easy.
The structure and the officiating need to be sorted first though and everyone will have to work together for one purpose, thats where we have to start, because the media will see straight through the weaknesses that we have at present and that would do us more harm than good. The Broadcasters are not out there just looking for an opportunity to pick up Hockey, far from it, we will have to prove to them that it is worth them investing, which will not be easy.
It's a shame hockey isn't given as much time as the lowly Welsh Football League seems to get on Welsh tv. Welsh league teams get one man and his dog watching games ( small crowds ) yet manage to obtain the necessary sponsorship that warrants coverage, as if we don't have enough football on the box as it is !!
Ah, but football is football.
There are plenty of sports that have lower attendances than hockey that get better media. Like Huskie said, it is more about how the top levels of the sport organise and present themselves. You want to give the media something marketable off the bat. Currently we are not there.
I may have made the stat up, but the murky back of my mind I have the fact that hockey has the third highest weekly attendances of spectator sports in the UK (after football and rugby). Not sure if that is true, but the numbers stack up - if you take the sort of crowds we expect in hockey over two days of the weekend.
What counts against us is the evening schedule of the league. Football on a Saturday afternoon is something sports channels and pubs love, but with ice hockey happening in the evening it has to compete against whole family viewing. I suppose you could have matinee games for airing live. There are often arguments when I spend Saturday and Sunday evenings manning the MNL desk. It is perceived as family time...or in my case coupley time.
There are plenty of sports that have lower attendances than hockey that get better media. Like Huskie said, it is more about how the top levels of the sport organise and present themselves. You want to give the media something marketable off the bat. Currently we are not there.
I may have made the stat up, but the murky back of my mind I have the fact that hockey has the third highest weekly attendances of spectator sports in the UK (after football and rugby). Not sure if that is true, but the numbers stack up - if you take the sort of crowds we expect in hockey over two days of the weekend.
What counts against us is the evening schedule of the league. Football on a Saturday afternoon is something sports channels and pubs love, but with ice hockey happening in the evening it has to compete against whole family viewing. I suppose you could have matinee games for airing live. There are often arguments when I spend Saturday and Sunday evenings manning the MNL desk. It is perceived as family time...or in my case coupley time.
The starting place is for those in power to accept that it isn't working and to stop pushing their own agendas. Terestrial TV won't take the sport. It has to be Sky who have been excellant in promoting the minority sports. We all probably watch Sky's coverage, but to be honest it's the most unprofessional commentary Team in the Business. Watch NHL on the Fly and you feel like you experienced what's going on in NHL. This brings me back to the Point that D.Simms is not the person to be leading the marketing of our wonderful game to the Nation.
There should be a company that works on behalf the EIHL with its role is to look after all aspects of marketing. At the moment many of the clubs could not afford their own marketing, so why not pool all the resources. This company could help with all clubs Websites, merchandising etc... How good would it be if all clubs also had live webcams (what an opportunity missed by not broadcasting Hockey Fest) Uniformity through the clubs, pooled resources and finances.
The only way for this to happen is if a team like The Devils takes a leading light for the rest to follow, if we do it right then maybe the other clubs will follow.
So how would I do it at the Devils?
`1. Get the Website upto scratch. - Personally I think it's like a maze, and not very informative. The rule of thumb should be that within 3 clicks of the mouse I should get to where I want to be,
2. Devils TV. I'll throw this back to people on the thread. What do you think we should have in Devils TV. I want hightlights within 24 hours, when the team are away from home I want to be able to watch them, at least hear them. I want interviews with the players done by good interviewers. 'A day in the life of Brad Voth'
I won't continue as I am sure you get the drift. This is a place to start. I think the Devils are going in the right direction by getting the basics right, but they need a visionary with the ability to take us on in the world of delivering the Devils to the fans.
In closing it's simple. Without fans there are no ticket sales or sponsors which means no money for the game. We do need SKY money as well to support the game. Before SKY sports invested in football we had the poorest league in Eurrope. Before they invested in Rugby, our grounds were empty except for internationals. We couldn't win the ashes for years until their money came in as well. I think you get the point and please don't reply by saying there were poorer leagues. A professional body working with SKY is a start.
Devils sorting their own stuff out is also a start.
There should be a company that works on behalf the EIHL with its role is to look after all aspects of marketing. At the moment many of the clubs could not afford their own marketing, so why not pool all the resources. This company could help with all clubs Websites, merchandising etc... How good would it be if all clubs also had live webcams (what an opportunity missed by not broadcasting Hockey Fest) Uniformity through the clubs, pooled resources and finances.
The only way for this to happen is if a team like The Devils takes a leading light for the rest to follow, if we do it right then maybe the other clubs will follow.
So how would I do it at the Devils?
`1. Get the Website upto scratch. - Personally I think it's like a maze, and not very informative. The rule of thumb should be that within 3 clicks of the mouse I should get to where I want to be,
2. Devils TV. I'll throw this back to people on the thread. What do you think we should have in Devils TV. I want hightlights within 24 hours, when the team are away from home I want to be able to watch them, at least hear them. I want interviews with the players done by good interviewers. 'A day in the life of Brad Voth'
I won't continue as I am sure you get the drift. This is a place to start. I think the Devils are going in the right direction by getting the basics right, but they need a visionary with the ability to take us on in the world of delivering the Devils to the fans.
In closing it's simple. Without fans there are no ticket sales or sponsors which means no money for the game. We do need SKY money as well to support the game. Before SKY sports invested in football we had the poorest league in Eurrope. Before they invested in Rugby, our grounds were empty except for internationals. We couldn't win the ashes for years until their money came in as well. I think you get the point and please don't reply by saying there were poorer leagues. A professional body working with SKY is a start.
Devils sorting their own stuff out is also a start.
I think the problem is that we're not a true minority sport as many people believe us to be. Minority sports are ones which have a very small following like judo, rowing, squash which have very few spectators on a regular basis. Let us not forget that at each game the EIHL averages somewhere between 1,000-2,000 and can get crowds as high as 7,000. This puts us in mid-table in terms of popularity meaning that to get media coverage we cannot rely on being a 'minority sport' but instead we have to go up against football, cricket and rugby which is almost impossible.
I had a bit of a fantasy moment, trying to work out how we could make an Elite League On The Fly type show.
It would need people at each of the rinks getting interviews and footage to you within a few hours - then studio work at 11:00 in the, or early the following morning. You'd need to have to get people who can really talk through the clips, and have decent discussion. Then get it online for streaming within 24 hours.
Then how do you fund it? Pay subscription service? Footage would be interesting, as the teams own the copywrite, and I guess they would charge you for the privilege.
Who would be your talking heads? They would need to be neutral - No Simmsy, or even Brent. Or a few team biased people, with a neutral compare. They then need to really talk about the hockey. You can learn an awful lot watching NHL on the Fly - about hockey training and tactics in general.
Perhaps the Devils could start doing this sort of show on Devils TV. Not just highlights, but a bit of studio type affair, actually critically talking about the performance. I can see Franny and Brent doing an ace show for home games. Away games would be more interesting, as we wouldn't have the rights to the highlights.
It would need people at each of the rinks getting interviews and footage to you within a few hours - then studio work at 11:00 in the, or early the following morning. You'd need to have to get people who can really talk through the clips, and have decent discussion. Then get it online for streaming within 24 hours.
Then how do you fund it? Pay subscription service? Footage would be interesting, as the teams own the copywrite, and I guess they would charge you for the privilege.
Who would be your talking heads? They would need to be neutral - No Simmsy, or even Brent. Or a few team biased people, with a neutral compare. They then need to really talk about the hockey. You can learn an awful lot watching NHL on the Fly - about hockey training and tactics in general.
Perhaps the Devils could start doing this sort of show on Devils TV. Not just highlights, but a bit of studio type affair, actually critically talking about the performance. I can see Franny and Brent doing an ace show for home games. Away games would be more interesting, as we wouldn't have the rights to the highlights.