Cowick - Abuse of In-Game Officials

Thread starter #1
So i'm sure everyone's seen the footage by now. DOPS just dropped a 6 game ban on Cowick (Clan) for shoving the lino. Totally valid in my opinion.

But alot of people are now complaining about how the lino confronted Cowick and that the refs shouldn't be allowed to 'Man-Handle' the players. What's everyones take on this?

P.S - People are drawings comparisons (and calling Devils Bias) to the Bordy/Hicks incident...
 

dave

Well-Known Member
#2
The Linesman did his job/role which is impossible to do without having to use restraining techniques on players in certain situations.

The amount and force and technique would be the key question on that and in that incident where a player is going back to the ref in a state of anger I think Wells did his job correctly.

you have to protect the ref and stop the oncoming player and restrain them. Same as one player fighting and other is not you have to protect the nonwilling player for his safety and restrain the other.

And yes sometimes when you do that you expect to be attempted to be shrugged off (in this case I would point to the Hicks incident of a case of that happening) by the player and as an official expect some sort of resistance initially what you do not expect is a punch. We may get them in a fight situation accidently and I have had more than a few cases of the attempt to be shrugged off and a stray punch etc but it is part and parcel of that role. Cowick went over that line and I think 6 is right.
 

pjj365

Well-Known Member
#3
Rule book extract on Twitter is clear on the type of incident and 6 is the minimum

Todd discusses the Bordy incident in his latest interview
 

Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#4
Based on the rules recently posted on Twitter had Coventry asked for a review or the Referee highlighted it in his Match Report then I can't see how Bordy wouldn't have got 6 Games! It was nowhere near as bad as Cowick's but it falls into the same category... I can see why Braehead fans may be slightly peeved but until the EIHL change things so that incidents involving officials are automatically reviewed then things like this will happen.
 

Devil_Abroad

Well-Known Member
#5
Based on the rules recently posted on Twitter had Coventry asked for a review or the Referee highlighted it in his Match Report then I can't see how Bordy wouldn't have got 6 Games! It was nowhere near as bad as Cowick's but it falls into the same category... I can see why Braehead fans may be slightly peeved but until the EIHL change things so that incidents involving officials are automatically reviewed then things like this will happen.
Todd explained Hick's report did not include further action required against Bordy - and further verbal comment to him stating he didn't think Bordy's interaction with the lino warranted a penalty at the time hence no review. We can debate whether Hicks was right or wrong but he's the referee at the time and the guy with years of experience applying his professional subjective view on the incident.

I think people need to state what their gripe is with the whole process so that we can fully understand what it is they're moaning about.

Is it the perceived lack of visibility around the process? If so, then they haven't come across the statements and comments already in the public domain on how it works. It is pretty straight forward and would possibly clear up the arguments from fans about what is and isn't reviewed and therefore remove the perceived injustices when fans compare different altercations in different games and complain about the resultant punishment or no punishment is announced. Look at the process people.

Where I think there is room for debate is the punishment assessed to players when they've been found guilty. So for example should a tariff of a 2 game suspension be enough on Rutherford's hit to an opponents head. Many if not most would probably say there needs to be a longer ban so that all players will realise the severity of deliberately targeting a player's head. But the rules state that a plea of no intent is not a defence and therefore if the length of ban imposed on Rutherford is 6 games, the same would apply to Venus if you believed his was not intentional but rather reckless. Would everyone agree with that length of ban? Indeed, my opinion of Fitzgerald's hit on Bowns was intentional and so for me the ban would be 6 games there. However many people don't believe that was intentional (mostly Steelers fans) as he 'couldn't avoid Bowns' (disregard the blatant late movement into Bowns' head) and so that would be 'accidental' not deserving of a 6 game ban.

We now get into the area of changing the rule and splitting out intentional against accidental; but to do this would mean introducing another layer of subjectiveness i.e. those reviewing the incident would have to decide whether the player meant to do it - the fans would then be in uproar again as I'm sure we would all have our own subjective views on the incident.

All this is a minefield - and as Todd mentioned in his interview the league doesn't have the funds to cover a host of professional ex-players and referees to sit in week after week on studying all the plays in a game to determine whether foul play according to their interpretation of the rules of the game took place.

Simon Kirkham and the EIHL board I believe review the calls and assessed duration of punishments at the end of the season. Hence why adjustments are probably made for the following season which ironically then leads fans to moan when trying to compare length of bans from previous years.

For me, I think the process has to be a simple one so all teams can follow it (including Fife) - and the one we currently have is simple

There has to be consistency on what is automatically reviewed and we also have that in place. Teams are able to ask for other incidents to be reviewed either not seen by the officials on the night or maybe in their view at the time did not warrant a call. They have to pay if not upheld but there's nothing wrong with that.

Simon Kirkham has stated his vision of wanting all the EIHL officials to be at the same standard and reviews their performance on a regular basis. Is it perfect? No, nothing will ever be perfect. But at least they're trying and the intention is there. Interesting point here, apparently the IIHF hold our officials in high regard. Do they still get things wrong, of course they do. We all do. (For me a deliberate swing to the head with a stick whether you connect or not should be given a lengthy ban - but then we start debating what's deliberate lol. Also, a deliberate hit to the head when a player is vulnerable should have a lengthy ban - anyone agree with my subjective view that Fitzgerald's hit was one? No? Lol)

My belief is that what we have in place now is far better than what we had 2 or 3 years ago. Can it be improved? Yes. Almost everything can be improved. But it can also be made far worse so we need to be careful in what we perceive would be better when in practice it may be far worse.

On a lighter note, anyone agree with me when they study the Cowick incident that Darnell 'leant' a little in towards Cowick as he skated towards him? Or am I seeing things lol

Finally, I like what Todd said about player's reactions on the ice and their accountability. Stuff happens, players get angry, but they are still responsible for their actions and reactions to situations. Reacting badly to a ref is dumb guys. the ref 99.99% of the time will not change his mind so shouting abuse in his face is dumb. Feel aggrieved yes, get your Captain or Associate Captains to question why, but don't take it into your own hands. And as for Haddad [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Apologies for the length of the post



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Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#6
Todd explained Hick's report did not include further action required against Borsy - and further verbal comment to him stating he didn't think Bordy's interaction with the lino warranted a penalty at the time hence no review. We can debate whether Hicks was right or wrong but he's the referee at the time and the guy with years of experience applying his professional subjective view on the incident.

I think people need to state what their gripe is with the whole process so that we can fully understand what it is they're moaning about.

Is it the perceived lack of visibility around the process? If so, then they haven't come across the statements and comments already in the public domain on how it works. It is pretty straight forward would possibly clear up the arguments from fans about what is and isn't reviewed and therefore remove the perceived injustices when fans compare different altercations in different games and complain the resultant punishment or no punishment is announced. Look at the process people.

Where I think there is room for debate is the punishment assessed to players when they've been found guilty. So for example should a tariff of a 2 game suspension be enough on Rutherford's hit to an opponents head. Many if not most would probably say there needs to be a longer ban so that all players will realise the severity of deliberately targeting a player's head. But the rules state that a plea of no intent is not a defence and therefore if the length of ban imposed on Rutherford is 6 games, the same would apply to Venus if you believed his was not intentional but rather reckless. Would everyone agree with that length of ban? Indeed, my opinion of Fitzgerald's hit on Bowns was intentional and so for me the ban would be 6 games there. However many people don't believe that was intentional (mostly Steelers fans) as he 'couldn't avoid Bowns' (disregard the blatant late movement into Bowns' head) and so that would be 'accidental' not deserving of a 6 game ban.

We now get into the area of changing the rule and splitting out intentional against accidental; but to do this would mean introducing a mother layer of subjectiveness i.e. those reviewing the incident would have to decide whether the player meant to do it - the fans would then be in uproar again as I'm sure we would all have our own subjective views on the incident.

All this is a minefield - and as Todd mentioned in his interview the league doesn't have the funds to cover a host of professional ex-players and referees to sit in week after week on studying all the plays in a game to determine whether fowl play according to their interpretation of the rules of the game took place.

Simon Kirkham and the EIHL board I believe review the calls and assessed duration of punishments at the end of the season. Hence why adjustments are probably made for the following season which ironically then leads fans to moan when trying to compare length of bans from previous years.

For me, I think the process has to be a simple one so all teams can follow it (including Fife) - and the one we currently have is simple

There has to be consistency on what is automatically reviewed and we also have that in place. Teams are able to ask for other incidents to be reviewed either not seen by the officials on the night or maybe in their view at the time did not warrant a call. They have to pay if not upheld but there's nothing wrong with that.

Simon Kirkham has stated his vision of wanting all the EIHL officials to be at the same standard and reviews their performance on a regular basis. Is it perfect? No, nothing will ever be perfect. But at least they're trying and the intention is there. Interesting point here, apparently the IIHF hold our officials in high regard. Do they still get things wrong, of course they do. We all do. (For me a deliberate swing to the head with a stick whether you connect or not should be given a lengthy ban - but then we start debating what's deliberate lol. Also, a deliberate hit to the head when a player is vulnerable should have a lengthy ban - anyone agree with my subjective view that Fitzgerald's hit was one? No? Lol)

My belief is that what we have in place now is far better than what we had 2 or 3 years ago. Can it be improved? Yes. Almost everything can be improved. But it can also be made far worse so we need to be careful in what we perceive would be better when in practice it may be far worse.

On a lighter note, anyone agree with me when they study the Cowick incident that Darnell 'leant' a little in towards Cowick as he skated towards him? Or am I seeing things lol

Finally, I like what Todd said about player's reactions on the ice and their accountability. Stuff happens, players get angry, but they are still responsible for their actions and reactions to situations. Reacting badly to a ref is dumb guys. the ref 99.99% of the time will not change his mind so shouting abuse in his face is dumb. Feel aggrieved yes, get your Captain or Associate Captains to question why, but don't take it into your own hands. And as for Haddad [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Apologies for the length of the post



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Presume you mean the Fitzgerald hit on Stewart?

Can't argue with most of what you say but I do think Officials should be looked after via Automatic Reviews... Opposing Teams shouldn't have to submit a review! As Todd said... Based on the rules Bordy should've probably had a ban and with it being a flat rate 6 Games it wouldn't have mattered how much worse Cowick's was they would've ended up with the same punishment. FWIW I'm glad it didn't get taken further by Hicks!
 
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James

Administrator
#7
Simon Kirkham and the EIHL board I believe review the calls and assessed duration of punishments at the end of the season. Hence why adjustments are probably made for the following season which ironically then leads fans to moan when trying to compare length of bans from previous years.
Good post and I think the quoted above leads to the most complaints. If you get penalized heavily one year then a different teams player gets off lightly its difficult not to feel aggrieved, despite the fact you don't know the metrics each was weighed against. Hopefully, other than when certain penalties are increased in severity, which can be documented (such as the current attempts to stop checks to the head) the tariffs will eventually find their level so fans will have a better idea of what to expect.
 

Devil_Abroad

Well-Known Member
#8
Presume you mean the Fitzgerald hit on Stewart?

Can't argue with most of what you say but I do think Officials should be looked after via Automatic Reviews... Opposing Teams shouldn't have to submit a review! As Todd said... Based on the rules Bordy should've probably had a ban and with it being a flat rate 6 Games it wouldn't have mattered how much worse Cowick's was they would've ended up with the same punishment. FWIW I'm glad it didn't get taken further by Hicks!
Haha! Yes! Oops, I got something wrong ergo [emoji23][emoji23] Thanks

Agree officials should be looked after. However, the review is requested by the referee's report not the opposing team so they're already in control?

And again, I agree. Could have and should in my opinion have been a ban on Bordy however Hicks' view (and he's the professional here) was that it was a push not a strike and therefore didn't warrant a review. I disagree with him on that one. A strike can be deemed to be a push not a punch but I'm splitting hairs. (No wonder I'm bald!)


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Kal

Active Member
#9
For me there is no discussion to be had between the Bordy and Cowick incidents. Cowick was assessed an abuse of officials penalty so should be reviewed and banned. Hicks i don't think called Bordy for it and from Todds comments didn't make an issue of it in his report either so there is nothing to review. Unless an injury has occurred and all the stripes have missed it I don't think it's right that you can have DOPS basically retrospectively referee a game. I'm all for having serious incidents looked into after all its in the interest of player safety but being able to second guess a referees call (or lack of) is surely diminishing their authority on games.

On Cowick, rules be rules, he made no attempt to not clash with Darnell then after being assessed a penalty went to challenge it. That right there could technically be classes as abuse as I bet his words wouldn't have been polite but then violently shoves a Lino too. Should have got a game on the night.
 

Johnnybravo1927

Well-Known Member
#10
Todd explained Hick's report did not include further action required against Bordy - and further verbal comment to him stating he didn't think Bordy's interaction with the lino warranted a penalty at the time hence no review. We

can debate whether Hicks was right or wrong but he's the referee at the time and the guy with years of experience applying his professional subjective view on the incident.

I think people need to state what their gripe is with the whole process so that we can fully understand what it is they're moaning about.

Is it the perceived lack of visibility around the process? If so, then they haven't come across the statements and comments already in the public domain on how it works. It is pretty straight forward and would possibly clear up the arguments from fans about what is and isn't reviewed and therefore remove the perceived injustices when fans compare different altercations in different games and complain about the resultant punishment or no punishment is announced. Look at the process people.

Where I think there is room for debate is the punishment assessed to players when they've been found guilty. So for example should a tariff of a 2 game suspension be enough on Rutherford's hit to an opponents head. Many if not most would probably say there needs to be a longer ban so that all players will realise the severity of deliberately targeting a player's head. But the rules state that a plea of no intent is not a defence and therefore if the length of ban imposed on Rutherford is 6 games, the same would apply to Venus if you believed his was not intentional but rather reckless. Would everyone agree with that length of ban? Indeed, my opinion of Fitzgerald's hit on Bowns was intentional and so for me the ban would be 6 games there. However many people don't believe that was intentional (mostly Steelers fans) as he 'couldn't avoid Bowns' (disregard the blatant late movement into Bowns' head) and so that would be 'accidental' not deserving of a 6 game ban.

We now get into the area of changing the rule and splitting out intentional against accidental; but to do this would mean introducing another layer of subjectiveness i.e. those reviewing the incident would have to decide whether the player meant to do it - the fans would then be in uproar again as I'm sure we would all have our own subjective views on the incident.

All this is a minefield - and as Todd mentioned in his interview the league doesn't have the funds to cover a host of professional ex-players and referees to sit in week after week on studying all the plays in a game to determine whether foul play according to their interpretation of the rules of the game took place.

Simon Kirkham and the EIHL board I believe review the calls and assessed duration of punishments at the end of the season. Hence why adjustments are probably made for the following season which ironically then leads fans to moan when trying to compare length of bans from previous years.

For me, I think the process has to be a simple one so all teams can follow it (including Fife) - and the one we currently have is simple

There has to be consistency on what is automatically reviewed and we also have that in place. Teams are able to ask for other incidents to be reviewed either not seen by the officials on the night or maybe in their view at the time did not warrant a call. They have to pay if not upheld but there's nothing wrong with that.

Simon Kirkham has stated his vision of wanting all the EIHL officials to be at the same standard and reviews their performance on a regular basis. Is it perfect? No, nothing will ever be perfect. But at least they're trying and the intention is there. Interesting point here, apparently the IIHF hold our officials in high regard. Do they still get things wrong, of course they do. We all do. (For me a deliberate swing to the head with a stick whether you connect or not should be given a lengthy ban - but then we start debating what's deliberate lol. Also, a deliberate hit to the head when a player is vulnerable should have a lengthy ban - anyone agree with my subjective view that Fitzgerald's hit was one? No? Lol)

My belief is that what we have in place now is far better than what we had 2 or 3 years ago. Can it be improved? Yes. Almost everything can be improved. But it can also be made far worse so we need to be careful in what we perceive would be better when in practice it may be far worse.

On a lighter note, anyone agree with me when they study the Cowick incident that Darnell 'leant' a little in towards Cowick as he skated towards him? Or am I seeing things lol

Finally, I like what Todd said about player's reactions on the ice and their accountability. Stuff happens, players get angry, but they are still responsible for their actions and reactions to situations. Reacting badly to a ref is dumb guys. the ref 99.99% of the time will not change his mind so shouting abuse in his face is dumb. Feel aggrieved yes, get your Captain or Associate Captains to question why, but don't take it into your own hands. And as for Haddad [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Apologies for the length of the post

What did Haddad do?

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Slartibartfast

Well-Known Member
#11
I think DOPS is a huge improvement on what we had years ago. Anyone remember Shannon Hopes 13 match ban. In those days bans seemed to be random and excessive and possibly even influenced by club owners to benefit their clubs chance of winning the league. Those were the days of 3-4 imports so losing an import was a game changer.
These days DOPS clearly explain the rules, the judgement and the ban imposed in a very professional manner. I think Kirkham is doing a great job. (Did I just say something positive about an ice hockey referee. Somebody slap me quick):)
 

Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#12
Haha! Yes! Oops, I got something wrong ergo [emoji23][emoji23] Thanks

Agree officials should be looked after. However, the review is requested by the referee's report not the opposing team so they're already in control?

And again, I agree. Could have and should in my opinion have been a ban on Bordy however Hicks' view (and he's the professional here) was that it was a push not a strike and therefore didn't warrant a review. I disagree with him on that one. A strike can be deemed to be a push not a punch but I'm splitting hairs. (No wonder I'm bald!)


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The review wasn't requested upon reading the referee's report though... It was consulted after Manchester Storm had submitted the request! Seth Bennett has confirmed that on Twitter and stated that it's the reason nothing was done regarding Bordy's incident - Coventry didn't submit a request. That procedure is under review and I'd imagine that by next season any incidents involving Players & Officials will be part of the Automatic Review process?
https://twitter.com/Sethb45/status/801698604914249728
 
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