Flyers Vs Devils - League - 17th Dec 23 - FO 17:30

[Martynwo]

Let's be honest, performances of late, particularly last weekend have been on a downward curve. As a 2nd placed team, we should be seeing out 5-1 games and beating 10th ranked teams.
We can all blame travel, we fly to Scotland, I believe Stars with 4D didn't. The club agreed this schedule and additional European games etc.

For me it's down to a coach, in this case PR, to create and manage his roster from recruitment up the the last game, manage injuries, define hockey style, coach lines and systems, change systems during games and out coach the opposition etc.
This is PR's roster, he made decisions to retain players and recruit. We can all debate if someone else is making decisions and if they did / are then any coach has to be strong to either accept or walk away.
I'm no coach, I have watched the devils since day one which gives me no advantage over the fan sitting next to me but I can see that there is something wrong. We have good players, I'd argue that, Arnell, Busch, Sandford, Ully and Martin could be on Belfast and Steelers top 2 lines, most of our Brits on the rosters of up to a 3th placed team, all that's open to discussion. Point is that they started well and we've lost games where we shouldn't have. Yes we've 2nd but I don't want to be 2nd, I want to be competitive and win EVERY game not just for the top games.
So my questions to the coach are, why do we seem to be out coached during games? why aren't we finishing checks?, I saw 1 hit on Saturday by Riley, why do we not take action against cheap shots and injury sustained hits?, aka Waller on Saturday especially as he's been out with concussion protocol before. Why is our PP ranked 7th ?, Although our PK is excellent J1st. Do you think teams "fear" to come to Cardiff ? they did in the WNIR and BBT so how can we replicate this environment? please don't say it's down to the fans, the product on the ice dictates the atmosphere. At what point do you think that "European" over N. American hockey may not be the answer?
There's an American saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it, I'm not saying i's broken yet but it's starting to look like it needs some maintenance.

My summary in asking those questions are, If we had Plan B, C, even a plan D during a game, if we were more physical off the puck, If we sent a message as a result of a cheap shot etc, if our PP was 2nd in the league, if we established a fear for opposition teams to play here do you think we would be more successful? I think and hope so, we would have tried everything other that the 2-week letter ;-)
I love this club and it hurts me to see performances of late, I just want to maybe press the re-fresh button and start a new "season as soon as possible"....apart from the Conti-cup distraction !! but that's another discussion ha ha

 

[kettdevil1]

Let's be honest, performances of late, particularly last weekend have been on a downward curve. As a 2nd placed team, we should be seeing out 5-1 games and beating 10th ranked teams.
We can all blame travel, we fly to Scotland, I believe Stars with 4D didn't. The club agreed this schedule and additional European games etc.

For me it's down to a coach, in this case PR, to create and manage his roster from recruitment up the the last game, manage injuries, define hockey style, coach lines and systems, change systems during games and out coach the opposition etc.
This is PR's roster, he made decisions to retain players and recruit. We can all debate if someone else is making decisions and if they did / are then any coach has to be strong to either accept or walk away.
I'm no coach, I have watched the devils since day one which gives me no advantage over the fan sitting next to me but I can see that there is something wrong. We have good players, I'd argue that, Arnell, Busch, Sandford, Ully and Martin could be on Belfast and Steelers top 2 lines, most of our Brits on the rosters of up to a 3th placed team, all that's open to discussion. Point is that they started well and we've lost games where we shouldn't have. Yes we've 2nd but I don't want to be 2nd, I want to be competitive and win EVERY game not just for the top games.
So my questions to the coach are, why do we seem to be out coached during games? why aren't we finishing checks?, I saw 1 hit on Saturday by Riley, why do we not take action against cheap shots and injury sustained hits?, aka Waller on Saturday especially as he's been out with concussion protocol before. Why is our PP ranked 7th ?, Although our PK is excellent J1st. Do you think teams "fear" to come to Cardiff ? they did in the WNIR and BBT so how can we replicate this environment? please don't say it's down to the fans, the product on the ice dictates the atmosphere. At what point do you think that "European" over N. American hockey may not be the answer?
There's an American saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it, I'm not saying i's broken yet but it's starting to look like it needs some maintenance.

My summary in asking those questions are, If we had Plan B, C, even a plan D during a game, if we were more physical off the puck, If we sent a message as a result of a cheap shot etc, if our PP was 2nd in the league, if we established a fear for opposition teams to play here do you think we would be more successful? I think and hope so, we would have tried everything other that the 2-week letter ;-)
I love this club and it hurts me to see performances of late, I just want to maybe press the re-fresh button and start a new "season as soon as possible"....apart from the Conti-cup distraction !! but that's another discussion ha ha

I haven't looked through the thread and I missed both games at the weekend so can't comment on those but..... not sure how much I agree here. I thought we played very professionally up in Scotland and given our schedule, we played sensible hockey, bar the Clan's equaliser which came from Brandt going for a big hit, being caught out of position and allowing the forwards to outgun us. I absolutely get the love of physical hockey and agree that the Waller hit should have been met with some retaliation but in terms of fearing going anywhere, I can't think of any arena that is particularly intimidating - even Fife is far tamer than it used to be.

The PP is really frustrating as it is just not working at all and whilst I agree that this is something PR needs to fix, not sure how much more blame we can attach to a coach who has us in 2nd and in the Conti Cup finals. We all know Sheffield will drop away at some point and Belfast will come on strong so we need to be in position to take advantage. Not sure what everyones expectations were at the start but 2nd at Christmas is pretty much what I imagined would be a decent return.

 

[Rempel16]

I haven't looked through the thread and I missed both games at the weekend so can't comment on those but..... not sure how much I agree here. I thought we played very professionally up in Scotland and given our schedule, we played sensible hockey, bar the Clan's equaliser which came from Brandt going for a big hit, being caught out of position and allowing the forwards to outgun us. I absolutely get the love of physical hockey and agree that the Waller hit should have been met with some retaliation but in terms of fearing going anywhere, I can't think of any arena that is particularly intimidating - even Fife is far tamer than it used to be.

The PP is really frustrating as it is just not working at all and whilst I agree that this is something PR needs to fix, not sure how much more blame we can attach to a coach who has us in 2nd and in the Conti Cup finals. We all know Sheffield will drop away at some point and Belfast will come on strong so we need to be in position to take advantage. Not sure what everyones expectations were at the start but 2nd at Christmas is pretty much what I imagined would be a decent return.

That is a very valid point about no arena being intimidating... But then, why should it be considered that it has to be that way just because no other team is? Just because no-one else's arena is intimidating for us to go into, doesn't mean ours can't be intimidating. That would give us a distinct advantage.

Social media in recent days has popped up with old clips from the Blaze team of 2004/5 (the grand slam team). There's a clip of Kalmikov hitting a player from behind (much like the Tansey hit on Barrow) - 4 Blaze players were straight on Kalmikov and Payette skated the width of the ice to get to him. We know those days of the enforcer are gone, but there's nothing stopping players showing that kind of heart.

It just served as a reminder of how a team / fans can help make a building intimidating. I hated going to Coventry that season - we lost most games before we'd stepped on the ice in the Skydome (and at home). We reacted by signing Voth, Darby, Adams the following season.

I want the Vindico to have that same level of fortress mentality. I want teams feeling like they're already 1-0 down before a puck has dropped. And if you beat us, you are going to know that you had to work damn hard to beat us, you had to go through hell and back.

 

[kettdevil1]

That is a very valid point about no arena being intimidating... But then, why should it be considered that it has to be that way just because no other team is? Just because no-one else's arena is intimidating for us to go into, doesn't mean ours can't be intimidating. That would give us a distinct advantage.

Social media in recent days has popped up with old clips from the Blaze team of 2004/5 (the grand slam team). There's a clip of Kalmikov hitting a player from behind (much like the Tansey hit on Barrow) - 4 Blaze players were straight on Kalmikov and Payette skated the width of the ice to get to him. We know those days of the enforcer are gone, but there's nothing stopping players showing that kind of heart.

It just served as a reminder of how a team / fans can help make a building intimidating. I hated going to Coventry that season - we lost most games before we'd stepped on the ice in the Skydome (and at home). We reacted by signing Voth, Darby, Adams the following season.

I want the Vindico to have that same level of fortress mentality. I want teams feeling like they're already 1-0 down before a puck has dropped. And if you beat us, you are going to know that you had to work damn hard to beat us, you had to go through hell and back.

I think we are absolutely in agreement that we both want that and I also agree with the comments that a reaction is needed after a bad hit. The problem is ...... I don't know whether that is ever going to be possible as, apart from the change on ice, I think the big differences have been the improvement in buildings and the attitudes of fans.

Think about where we used to go - Solihull, the old Nottingham Ice Stadium, Durham and others and all those places were pretty horrible to be at. They were cold, dirty, the opposition fans were on top of you and there must have been a sinking feeling on the player's bus when you got close to them. Now, bar Manchester (a place I really like as it reminds me of old school hockey) and Kirkcaldy, all stadiums are sanitised and far more pleasant places to go in terms of comfort, safety and the ability to sit and watch a game.

In Glasgow a few weeks back, we were mixed in with Clan fans, all chatting about the game, all sitting in light clothing and...... it was great to catch up and chat but..... it was a far cry from Hobs Moat Road in the 1980s. Same with our home arena, it's a great place to watch hockey but..... I can't imagine it ever being intimidating so..... reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that whilst there are places we struggle at (Nottingham and Coventry come to mind), I think the days of intimidating arenas have gone. Which is a shame.

 

[Wannabe2]

Rempel Unfortunately this is now a pipe dream, it’s like Man Utd fans wanting Best, Charlton, and Dennis Law back, or their equivalent, once you have been spoilt it’s difficult to reproduce those heady days.Sadly most things today ain’t a patch on what they used to be, yes you can say that’s an age thing, but the one thing I do believe is players are bigger,faster, more skilful, but their hearts are massively smaller and that’s something that you can’t remedy, sad to say.

 

[Rempel16]

I think we are absolutely in agreement that we both want that and I also agree with the comments that a reaction is needed after a bad hit. The problem is ...... I don't know whether that is ever going to be possible as, apart from the change on ice, I think the big differences have been the improvement in buildings and the attitudes of fans.

Think about where we used to go - Solihull, the old Nottingham Ice Stadium, Durham and others and all those places were pretty horrible to be at. They were cold, dirty, the opposition fans were on top of you and there must have been a sinking feeling on the player's bus when you got close to them. Now, bar Manchester (a place I really like as it reminds me of old school hockey) and Kirkcaldy, all stadiums are sanitised and far more pleasant places to go in terms of comfort, safety and the ability to sit and watch a game.

In Glasgow a few weeks back, we were mixed in with Clan fans, all chatting about the game, all sitting in light clothing and...... it was great to catch up and chat but..... it was a far cry from Hobs Moat Road in the 1980s. Same with our home arena, it's a great place to watch hockey but..... I can't imagine it ever being intimidating so..... reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that whilst there are places we struggle at (Nottingham and Coventry come to mind), I think the days of intimidating arenas have gone. Which is a shame.

Some great memories mixed in, there!

 

[Rempel16]

Rempel Unfortunately this is now a pipe dream, it’s like Man Utd fans wanting Best, Charlton, and Dennis Law back, or their equivalent, once you have been spoilt it’s difficult to reproduce those heady days.Sadly most things today ain’t a patch on what they used to be, yes you can say that’s an age thing, but the one thing I do believe is players are bigger,faster, more skilful, but their hearts are massively smaller and that’s something that you can’t remedy, sad to say.

I agree, with all apart from players being bigger these days.... I think there a lot less 6'4 plus, 220pound plus, players around these days. When a guy is 6'4 recently it seems he's still only 200 pounds or less. Change in the diets and professionalism of players I guess, alongside the natural wastage of those left behind when the speed of the game increased.

 

[Wannabe2]

I agree, with all apart from players being bigger these days.... I think there a lot less 6'4 plus, 220pound plus, players around these days. When a guy is 6'4 recently it seems he's still only 200 pounds or less. Change in the diets and professionalism of players I guess, alongside the natural wastage of those left behind when the speed of the game increased.

Agree mate.

 

[E.D.S.]

That's the problem though, the coach doesn't want a shit house player on his team, he wants smaller faster guys who are happy to get out muscled and bullied all over the ice and just accept it.

I'm not writing the season off but my expectations over the last couple of seasons has dropped because nothing has changed, our power play is a joke, the only two guys who would run through walls for the badge have been practically neutered, Chad and Brandt would raise hell for this team if they were allowed to get physical.

The idea of the goon is dead but certainly not the tough guy. They are everywhere In the NHL. Take a look at Bogosian v the NJ Devils, I think it was, recently, parading the red line in the warm up, causing havoc. Ryan Reaves, Kassian and Byfugelin not so long ago. I do like that tough role. Allen at Stars does that well for me. Brandt doesn't seem to be as physical and Chad hardly plays. I want to see that kind of player let loose. That's what I pay to see and what I think we are missing. It's so frustrating to see us roll over some days and no one there grabbing the team by the scruff of the neck and demanding more. There's no excuse for little effort. Losing is fine. When we roll over, it's so frustrating.

 

[Wannabe2]

Allen will be at Sheffield next season, putting even more bums on seats. We know the days of the goon have gone, but the days of an entertainer certainly haven’t. What I would give to hear our fans singing oh Justin Faryna once again.

 

[Dappy50]

Hi guys been watching from afar for a long time, first time poster so take it easy on me haha

There’s been some interesting opinions shared since after the fife game, I’ve been watching the devils for about 6 years now, I’m not a hockey guy who knows the game inside out like some of you on here, but the way I see it is everyone expects and wants different things when they watch the hockey.

I love watching our quick skill guys do their thing, cox Martin Sandford ully, what they do always has me talking about it for days after, but I also like watching the physical side of the game, I was gutted when we didn’t sign a big d man at the start of the season, I don’t want to watch a fight every game, far from it. But when Waller gets checked to the head on Saturday, someone should have been over there and had their gloves straight off,

I personally don’t enjoy watching the style of hockey this season but I do enjoy it when we win. I think it’s too early for anybody to have a meltdown, but the hockey has been so soft this season. But If this style of hockey wins us a trophy then happy days

 

[BostonBart22]

Allen will be at Sheffield next season, putting even more bums on seats. We know the days of the goon have gone, but the days of an entertainer certainly haven’t. What I would give to hear our fans singing oh Justin Faryna once again.

Absolutely, and he wouldn't back down from anyone, he was never gonna win some fights but gave it his all, he fought for our badge, warrior through and through

 

[Chris]

I think we are absolutely in agreement that we both want that and I also agree with the comments that a reaction is needed after a bad hit. The problem is ...... I don't know whether that is ever going to be possible as, apart from the change on ice, I think the big differences have been the improvement in buildings and the attitudes of fans.

Think about where we used to go - Solihull, the old Nottingham Ice Stadium, Durham and others and all those places were pretty horrible to be at. They were cold, dirty, the opposition fans were on top of you and there must have been a sinking feeling on the player's bus when you got close to them. Now, bar Manchester (a place I really like as it reminds me of old school hockey) and Kirkcaldy, all stadiums are sanitised and far more pleasant places to go in terms of comfort, safety and the ability to sit and watch a game.

In Glasgow a few weeks back, we were mixed in with Clan fans, all chatting about the game, all sitting in light clothing and...... it was great to catch up and chat but..... it was a far cry from Hobs Moat Road in the 1980s. Same with our home arena, it's a great place to watch hockey but..... I can't imagine it ever being intimidating so..... reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that whilst there are places we struggle at (Nottingham and Coventry come to mind), I think the days of intimidating arenas have gone. Which is a shame.

But you are talking about arenas and rinks that are a long time before the players @Rempel16 mentioned.

I think I agree with the sentiment of what you mean, but I can see what @Rempel16 is saying as well, just because other places are doesn't mean our place needs to be.

On the other hand, maybe this ties into what kind of crowds we are drawing these days, someone mentioned about people coming for a night out rather than to watch hockey and maybe that doesn't help with everything?

 

[Earnie]

Chris - your last paragraph is very relevant imo.

 

[kettdevil1]

But you are talking about arenas and rinks that are a long time before the players @Rempel16 mentioned.

I think I agree with the sentiment of what you mean, but I can see what @Rempel16 is saying as well, just because other places are doesn't mean our place needs to be.

On the other hand, maybe this ties into what kind of crowds we are drawing these days, someone mentioned about people coming for a night out rather than to watch hockey and maybe that doesn't help with everything?

Fair point and I think the bottom line is that what we get at the moment is a broadly sanitised product both on and off the ice. Whether we like it or not, the likes of Payette, Belak, Ware and Voth would have no place in the game today. A fun game is to go back and look at some of Vother's hits and play 'guess the DOPS' ban.... think about the 'head's up Tait' hit or the one on the Sheffield player in the playoff semi finals that was the biggest one I think I have ever seen..... put simply any of the players named would be banned for enough of the season to make them unemployable in this league.

So if we take out intimidation from players, we are left with the crowd and again, it is a more sanitised crowd, I am not advocating football style abuse of players but think back to the Jody Lehman chants, the Perron is a rat abuse and numerous others and that created a feverish atmosphere. It was the same at other rinks - Scooby taunting netminders up in Hull, the general abuse that everyone got at Kirkcaldy and even Tony Hand's mum up in Murrayfield and it all contributed to games having far more of an edge about them.

I think you are right to raise the changing fanbase but I still do go back to the fact that it is much easier to create an intimidating atmosphere if you are not sitting in a pretty comfy seat, with a perfect view of the action and the opportunity to wander out to get overpriced burgers in the concourse.

 

[Wannabe2]

Unfortunately lots of people come to our rink for a night out, that statement is absolutely true, and it ain’t about the hockey ,it’s a watering hole before going on to something else, they spend their money at the bar then wander about with little regard for anyone else, constantly talking loudly of course as it’s beer talk obstructing peoples view of the game, but their spending money so that’s fine. The Sunday change to a Saturday made sure the piss heads attended hoping to see a fight, before the next stop as its town. It’s great to see new faces at the rink if it means they will return week in week out , but the Nomadic tribes we are attracting are here today and gone tomorrow, but hay hoe its called progression, we even have to tell the fans now to make some noise. Anyway have a great Xmas everyone, and the best New Year ever.

 

[Ocko]

I’d take the piss heads coming on a Saturday wanting to see blood than the absolute virgins who cry about every hit on a Devils player or shout shoot on the powerplay after 2 passes.