My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: Devils TV

When all this is about defending players. Just remember that has to extend to all players not just the ones of a nationality you like or signed by a coach you like. Some pretty dividing statements coming from fans about european players right now. Last time I looked British players were European and not North American. If its an arguement on these terms players aren't to be used as pawns and all should have their rights defended.

I think for some of the Euro-critics it's not that they are European. Pretty much all the people who have criticised the Euro recruitment frenzy have also roundly praised Kurka, for example.

Seems to me they are criticising the cost-cutting recruitment style, with the incredibly strong talk of releasing pre-existing players backing that up.

I think it is merely a coincidence that the players who are drawing criticism are European. It would draw the same ire if the players released had been replaced by NIHL players (that were not legit youth development moves) or similar.

I don't think it's targeted xenophobia. I think it's reaction to a policy that had merit but has been, in some eyes, extrapolated to a ridiculous degree.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: Devils TV

And this is where I'm going to have major issues with any fans movement. The message being received is that there has been miss treatment of players and I support fans backing the guys against the ownership if contractual rights and promises are being let down upon. The players should be fighting there corner a little more and maybe this will escalate after the signing deadline as all the power shifts to their advantage and I suppose it fair fans make the ownership accountable for these actions. This I support.

Now this is where I begin to take issue. Fans are also beginning to think they can shape the recruitment policy of the club via militant talk and action. This crosses a line fans aren't fully entitled to. Ragan and Brent are in roles that give them the authority to set this policy and they can sign and release whoever they wish as long as they conduct all these player transactions in the correct and professional manner. No player should be in line for criticism from any fan other than for there on ice performance especially when they haven't even skated in the jersey yet. The players cut prior to the deadline should be the ones who are the weakest performers. If that is an old or a new player. A Canadian or a European it shouldn't matter. What is important for the devils is they ice the strongest possible import compliment. Until every import has ice time under their belt no one knows who that is. Cost cutting, not cost cutting that is an unknown right now.

I support fans asking for greater governance of the club as far as player treatment goes but the rest of the message I will not get on board with. I think the protest has to be kept very much on subject or it does cross in to the agenda catagory.

 

[Chris]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Paul and Mooney, i've moved your last 2 proper posts over onto this thread and deleted the posts you each made about moving over to this thread, hopefully that makes sense!

Anyway yeah, the big posts are now on here :Ninja

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I support fans asking for greater governance of the club as far as player treatment goes but the rest of the message I will not get on board with. I think the protest has to be kept very much on subject or it does cross in to the agenda catagory.

This is why the fans who are thinking of being #outside need to think carefully about what the demands are, and what message they want the protest to send to the club.

Just being upset isn't enough. Today's "Blight isn't icing" was either a stupid or brave move, and one we can debate from a hockey point of view but we shouldn't attack Brent the man, or even suggest that it is a mistreatment of the player (it may be the opposite).

The trouble is, fans expressing shock at the hockey mind get mixed with fans looking at it as player protection issue.

I know my social media today has probably looked rather mixed.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

In response to Mooney from the DevilsTV thread:

Understood and accepted.

However I do think you are putting a few intentions and words into people and posts that are not necessarily as strongly intended as you suggest.

Yes there have been very strong reactions to player treatment and recruitment, but in almost every case I have seen them, the poster has backed up those strong views by saying it is not the 'what' that has taken place, but the 'how'.

Releasing players, coaches - absolutely, 100% agree that is the purview and privilege of the MD or owner. However if they do not execute that with professionalism, honour and respect? That is when I (I can only speak for myself), with Joe Myers becoming the tipping point, decided to take displeasure into action.

More and more information about what has transpired, and what is likely in store, is finding its way into the public domain. That kind of information is what will make, I believe, a lot of minds up. There is no basis in fact, given the consistency of the actions of the season thus far, that the behaviour of BP or PR will change or improve regarding the respect shown to what should be 'their people'. With that in mind, some of us have got behind the 'outside' event as a starting point of how to display our dissatisfaction.

I do not believe all of either 'side's' proponents are 100% estranged from each other or in reality, all that far apart in what we want for the Club. I just believe there are largely varying levels of knowledge of events. I made my mind up based on what I know, as have all other fans. I am keen to ensure as much factual, dispassionate information of the Club's conduct is available as possible, as I genuinely believe this will allow people to make a more informed view.

Thanks to Chris for moving the posts.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Hey. I don't know massive amounts of specifics and I don't overly feel a need to know all the facts. If the players I.e. Employees are mistreated by the owner employer then I support a stand being taken to represent their rights and bring those mistreatments into the public domain. I support the fans demanding greater governance of the Cardiff devils from Paul Ragan and Brent Pope as far as conduct within the public domain and conduct within the market. These though are about as far as the rhetoric should stretch.

We are seeing comments from some about the recruitment policy. The use of third rate Europeans has been condemned before they played. Accusations about dropping the standard of play and divorcing from Devils heritage of physical hockey. All this is opinion based topic not cause for protest. I just want to be sure that the message remains on topic as if it drifts it will lose all credibility. The players. All players should be represented by the fans. I just reserve the right to call people on it if I think they target a player for anything other than their on ice performance as from reports tonight. The boys can play for the shirt as well as anyone else who's had the honour to wear it.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

We are seeing comments from some about the recruitment policy. The use of third rate Europeans has been condemned before they played. Accusations about dropping the standard of play and divorcing from Devils heritage of physical hockey. All this is opinion based topic not cause for protest. I just want to be sure that the message remains on topic as if it drifts it will lose all credibility. The players. All players should be represented by the fans. I just reserve the right to call people on it if I think they target a player for anything other than their on ice performance as from reports tonight. The boys can play for the shirt as well as anyone else who's had the honour to wear it.

I fully agree with this, I just think it is a little more isolated, and less thought out as a policy ('down with Euros') than you have suggested is all.

Not their fault they are being parachuted into a hot zone at all. I should state however that this is not about NA imports for me either. Not any imports at all in fact. Bigger issues than that for me - it's about the Club as a whole. The recruitment of budget continental European players and the mistreatment of North American players is merely symptomatic of the overall problem I see.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Carry on. I support the message to a large extent. Just slightly less passionately perhaps. I just hope like I said it stays on topic and solutions can be found.

 

[tigertemme]

what three are alleged to go

not a very constructive thread I know. but the latest news out of the tent is poper is set to fire 3 Imports.

which ones and why.

I think cook can go, no need for two import netties.
joonas litmus paper can go for this season, pointless having him(unless hes not counted in popes, we have too many import list)

morissette is the lowest points import forward.

blight is a point a game but with 6 goals (34 points)

if plumton goes over the new imports then we lack a fighter.

then I guess it comes down to the newbies, rama, svete and umm gipters(looked it up)
svete looks decent enough,
rama looks solid enough going forward
gipters is the weak one from my stance after 1 game.

this is obviously just my opinion on matters, I watched the webcast of Dundee, just like to know what everyone else is thinking

also rumours of matty myers or blight going to the blaze...

 

[eastsidedevil]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Am I the only one who is only interested in seeing a competitive team on the ice and nothing else ? Players come and go coaches come and go its professional sport. I find the whole strength of feeling towards players and management, pisitive and negative very bizarre. Can't we turn up watch the hockey then go home?

 

[Chris]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Threads merged, the rumoured departures have been discussed on a couple of pages in this topic already.

 

[eastsidedevil]

Re: what three are alleged to go

not a very constructive thread I know. but the latest news out of the tent is poper is set to fire 3 Imports.

which ones and why.

I think cook can go, no need for two import netties.
joonas litmus paper can go for this season, pointless having him(unless hes not counted in popes, we have too many import list)

morissette is the lowest points import forward.

blight is a point a game but with 6 goals (34 points)

if plumton goes over the new imports then we lack a fighter.

then I guess it comes down to the newbies, rama, svete and umm gipters(looked it up)
svete looks decent enough,
rama looks solid enough going forward
gipters is the weak one from my stance after 1 game.

this is obviously just my opinion on matters, I watched the webcast of Dundee, just like to know what everyone else is thinking

also rumours of matty myers or blight going to the blaze...

I am surprised that people find this surprising! We are carrying 3 too many imports and are a small club with one if the worst attendances in the league, of course we are going to lose some players!

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: what three are alleged to go

not a very constructive thread I know. but the latest news out of the tent is poper is set to fire 3 Imports.

which ones and why.

I think cook can go, no need for two import netties.
joonas litmus paper can go for this season, pointless having him(unless hes not counted in popes, we have too many import list)

morissette is the lowest points import forward.

blight is a point a game but with 6 goals (34 points)

if plumton goes over the new imports then we lack a fighter.

then I guess it comes down to the newbies, rama, svete and umm gipters(looked it up)
svete looks decent enough,
rama looks solid enough going forward
gipters is the weak one from my stance after 1 game.

this is obviously just my opinion on matters, I watched the webcast of Dundee, just like to know what everyone else is thinking

also rumours of matty myers or blight going to the blaze...

I am surprised that people find this surprising! We are carrying 3 too many imports and are a small club with one if the worst attendances in the league, of course we are going to lose some players!

4 too many actually, and that is unheard of for this Club in Jan / Feb. Brent even said in his interview in tonight's game that the Club has not been in this position for the last few years. It really does seem that financial and recruitment support depends upon who you are.

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Am I the only one who is only interested in seeing a competitive team on the ice and nothing else ? Players come and go coaches come and go its professional sport. I find the whole strength of feeling towards players and management, pisitive and negative very bizarre. Can't we turn up watch the hockey then go home?

I don't think so. I guess I'm with you, but I do worry about how the team portray themselves, as that reflects upon the fans and can build or diminish the moral.

I do agree that player movements are just part of the sport. As long the club do it with good grace.

Then it's all about the hockey. :-D

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Carry on. I support the message to a large extent. Just slightly less passionately perhaps. I just hope like I said it stays on topic and solutions can be found.

It is fully my intention to hold this event (any any in future if needed) as dispassionately as possible, with nothing other than factual evidence and informed instance driving my actions.

 

[jimmy snels]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

It really does seem that financial and recruitment support depends upon who you are
Paul: going forward we shouldn't support the coach more financially because G didn't get that sort of money? Not buying that and that really will hold us back. I hope ragan blows 10 million of his own money to be honest! :lol:

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I do agree that player movements are just part of the sport. As long the club do it with good grace.

This is the frustrating part for me.

It is a matter of embarrassingly public record that the Club have not done it with good grace, yet often that sentiment (with which I agree) is posted yet not elaborated on.

They have norsed up every opportunity they have had so far. Why anyone would think that suddenly this collaboration of personalities will mutate into a professional hockey Club is beyond me. I really struggle with that.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

It really does seem that financial and recruitment support depends upon who you are
Paul: going forward we shouldn't support the coach more financially because G didn't get that sort of money? Not buying that and that really will hold us back. I hope ragan blows 10 million of his own money to be honest! :lol:

Not this coach no, based on his performance, behaviour, repeated absence from the business and treatment of employees, sponsors & fans. £10million? Ragan doesn't have that kind of money and never has. Don't believe the hype or the (very brief) appearance of a Ferrari.

Lets talk Club facts here - on Wednesday the MD and Head Coach leaves the Club for, brief returns aside, the best part of 7 weeks. There is NO Head Coach of The Cardiff Devils for two of the most crucial months of the year. That is ridiculous, and it has been allowed and even endorsed by Brent and Paul.

Crazy situation.

 

[Tad#]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

"We all want to be successful and have to change our culture. Ice hockey in Britain has changed from the old physical approach to become faster and more skilled." - Paul Ragan.

Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/major-decisions-ahead-brent-pope-6592999

I find this comment slightly bizarre. PR seems to think the league is going away from the usual north american/Candian hockey style and adopting the European style instead. Does anyone see this happening?

I'm not complaining if so, just curious.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

"We all want to be successful and have to change our culture. Ice hockey in Britain has changed from the old physical approach to become faster and more skilled." - Paul Ragan.

Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/major-decisions-ahead-brent-pope-6592999

I find this comment slightly bizarre. PR seems to think the league is going away from the usual north american/Candian hockey style and adopting the European style instead. Does anyone see this happening?

I'm not complaining if so, just curious.

Interestingly, a case could be made that, instead of reacting to this Ragan and Pope are actually driving an attempt at it.

There are 23 non North American imports in the EIHL. We have 7 of them. That to me doesn't look like a trend we are tacking on to after everyone else.