Devils Vs Steelers - League - 3rd Jan 24 - FO 19:30

[Ocko]

Steelers' success is not all to do with AHL experience. Fox has held on to an excellent core of players and successfully added (and kept) newer players for subsequent seasons.
Supporting cast of developing young Brits from an established farm team (Steeldogs), some of whom played for Leeds, the top EHL league team.

They have a conditioning coach whose regime keeps them fit and strong. Under the stability of a long term head coach, gradual building of the roster but keeping/developing players has allowed them to finally buy in to Fox's systems and tactics.

I would be interested to know what players you think have come through the Steelerdogs partnership they have that have iced this season? Zero. The last player was Cole Shudra about 6 years ago before any farm team agreement was in place.

You also mention their strength and conditioning coach, and have before as if we don’t have one. Just because the club don’t put out a press release on it or because it’s not on Elite Prospects doesn’t mean they don’t have one. I don’t think there has been a single season where the Devils haven’t had a S & C coach since the Gerad Adams era. Maybe part of a season when Carl Hudson did it (but that was his side hussle anyway)

The Steelers roster is as good as it is because they’ve thrown money at it. That organisation can never be without a trophy for long so have funded a last chance saloon for Fox. They recruited a completely different calibre of player to the Devils.

 

[Wannabe2]

I would be interested to know what players you think have come through the Steelerdogs partnership they have that have iced this season? Zero. The last player was Cole Shudra about 6 years ago before any farm team agreement was in place.

You also mention their strength and conditioning coach, and have before as if we don’t have one. Just because the club don’t put out a press release on it or because it’s not on Elite Prospects doesn’t mean they don’t have one. I don’t think there has been a single season where the Devils haven’t had a S & C coach since the Gerad Adams era. Maybe part of a season when Carl Hudson did it (but that was his side huddle anyway)

The Steelers roster is as good as it is because they’ve thrown money at it. That organisation can never be without a trophy for long so have funded a last chance saloon for Fox. They recruited a completely different calibre of player to the Devils.

Thanks for that mate, it’s very informative.

 

[Earnie]

With an Arena of that capacity they have a bottomless pit of cash.
i know their costs are also higher than ours but still buckets of cash left over.

 

[Ocko]

With an Arena of that capacity they have a bottomless pit of cash.
i know their costs are also higher than ours but still buckets of cash left over.

Exactly that. Financially we cannot compete with Sheffield, Nottingham and definitely not Belfast.

Even with their ice rental they are still tens of thousands of £ better off than us every game. Belfast have the same agreement as us, no ice costs etc as they are owned by the operator. They literally have double the income.

 

[Wannabe2]

Jesus when a club have a 50/50 that pays out just under £16,000 which means they also make the same in a week, surely that can’t be too far of the players weekly wage, then at least double our fans how do we try to keep up with the Joneses. , it’s the same story at Belfast and to a smaller degree Nottingham, Glasgow has the capacity of bringing in 1,000 more fans than us. We can only compete by punching above our weight, and top recruiting, we are to a certain extent like a Aston Villa team in the Premiership, the thing to me that bugs me the most is not losing, it’s not entertaining, and please believe me that’s what a large portion of our fans will agree with. So where are we going wrong, are we just not good enough, do we not give a toss, do players not want to be here, are players taking the piss, is our coaching not up to scratch, are we not fit enough, are our players a bunch of pussies, who’s here for the ride,are we too soft on the players,are we not passionate enough, what’s the answer folks. Myself and it’s only my view is that we ain’t good enough, and we are flogging a dead horse, I see effort, to a certain extent but I don’t see a side good enough to challenge for trophies, the league’s gone and it’s only just turned December, yes it’s probably being bought, but we used to be pretty good at that tactic years ago. So my New Years Wish is can we have some entertainment please, it’s what most people crave, and it’s also what we pay for, we are keeping our part of the bargain by turning up, can we have something to shout about please.

 

[Earnie]

I remember being in the bar at WNIR when Bob Philips announced he had bought the Steelers!

There was a stunned silence.
i forget the technicalities of what happened afterwards!

 

[ASHIPP]

Not saying the Devils don't have a conditioning coach. But clearly the Steelers' regime is keeping their players strong, fast and fit....as many people on here acknowledged and observed when Steelers destroyed our team on Wednesday.

As far as their Brits are concerned, yes,they have one or two dual nationals. But look closer and 3 of the 5 have come through the Steelers' junior system/Okanagan/Canadian Academy hockey system and 4 of them have played for Leeds Knights (including Dowd). What are the Devils doing with their farm team and integrating good young players? We lost Reece Kelly to the Clan, Bailey Harewood is still playing at the next level down (and only appears in Devils dead rubber games), and our Alternate Captain Sam Duggan (another player who had a great junior career abroad) is regularly scratched in favour of other players who don't always deliver.

Yes, Steelers might have a considerable income from gate receipts. And they probably are able to recruit higher calibre players.... something the Devils didn't do, of course, during their league winning seasons! But there is no getting away from the fact that they have retained a good core of talented players over the past 5 years, and added players gradually who have stayed.

If Giants literally have considerably more income than the Devils, explain why they are not stomping the league by a mile this season.

Guildford Flames will not have the same gate receipt income from their games, but they have proved their worth through club stability, longterm proven coaching and a good core of returning players. It can be done, in a different set of circumstances from the big arena clubs. The Flames are living proof of that.

 

[Chris]

Not saying the Devils don't have a conditioning coach. But clearly the Steelers' regime is keeping their players strong, fast and fit....as many people on here acknowledged and observed when Steelers destroyed our team on Wednesday.

As far as their Brits are concerned, yes,they have one or two dual nationals. But look closer and 3 of the 5 have come through the Steelers' junior system/Okanagan Academy hockey system and 4 of them have played for Leeds Knights (including Dowd). What are the Devils doing with their farm team and integrating good young players? We lost Reece Kelly to the Clan, Bailey Harewood is still playing at the next level down (and only appears in Devils dead rubber games), and our Alternate Captain Sam Duggan (another player who had a great junior career abroad) is regularly scratched in favour of other players who don't always deliver.

Yes, Steelers might have a considerable income from gate receipts. And they probably are able to recruit higher calibre players.... something the Devils didn't do, of course, during their league winning seasons! But there is no getting away from the fact that they have retained a good core of talented players over the past 5 years, and added players gradually who have stayed.

If Giants literally have considerably more income than the Devils, explain why they are not stomping the league by a mile this season.

Guildford Flames will not have the same gate receipt income from their games, but they have proved their worth through club stability, longterm proven coaching and a good core of returning players. It can be done, in a different set of circumstances from the big arena clubs. The Flames are living proof of that.

You forgot to add for Flames that they have an owner that has backed them for years and years, fairly well documented just how much money has been poured into that team over the years.

 

[ASHIPP]

You forgot to add for Flames that they have an owner that has backed them for years and years, fairly well documented just how much money has been poured into that team over the years.

We've had a bit of investment from our Owners too.

 

[Wannabe2]

Isn’t the Guildford guy the wealthiest in the league.

 

[Phinktastique]

And to add to this the Flames have had nowhere near the success of the Cardiff Devils. Not even close. The Cardiff Devils had massive success pre Covid, we have just not quite reached those heights since we came back from it.

Financials aside, I have every confidence the owners and management will get us back to the top, it may just take time and patience - but it will happen!! They are winners! I’m also extremely confident that Pete Russell is the right man for the job! For me, thinking that Pete could turn around our fortunes (and it’s not as if we have been a bottom of the table team mind) in just 6 short months is crazy. In what sport, at any level, is this do-able?!

The guys in that locker room will be feeling this more than all of us collectively and as PR said in his interview, they are learning the expectations of the jersey and organisation! If we want success going forward we need to all work together, get positive and get behind this organisation 100%. Or what’s the alternative?? To be honest I get some of the reaction the last couple of weeks and some of it I agree with to some extent, but the overall negativities are so draining! We have all had a bit of a moan now - it’s time to get behind the team!! Our team!!

 

[Chris]

We've had a bit of investment from our Owners too.

I agree, but - and I might be remembering this wrong - haven't the owners been fairly open and consistent about running the team on a fairly even keel so that it can run sustainably?

Flames on the other hand seem to be the opposite, even their own fans on THF have admitted to how much is being pumped in to keep them going, or how much was spent on building the houses for the players or whatever else is going on.

I don't think it's as simple as you have made out in your post.

Bit like claiming we don't have anyone on the team for strength and conditioning...

 

[b.goldberg]

Not saying the Devils don't have a conditioning coach. But clearly the Steelers' regime is keeping their players strong, fast and fit....as many people on here acknowledged and observed when Steelers destroyed our team on Wednesday.

As far as their Brits are concerned, yes,they have one or two dual nationals. But look closer and 3 of the 5 have come through the Steelers' junior system/Okanagan/Canadian Academy hockey system and 4 of them have played for Leeds Knights (including Dowd). What are the Devils doing with their farm team and integrating good young players? We lost Reece Kelly to the Clan, Bailey Harewood is still playing at the next level down (and only appears in Devils dead rubber games), and our Alternate Captain Sam Duggan (another player who had a great junior career abroad) is regularly scratched in favour of other players who don't always deliver.

Yes, Steelers might have a considerable income from gate receipts. And they probably are able to recruit higher calibre players.... something the Devils didn't do, of course, during their league winning seasons! But there is no getting away from the fact that they have retained a good core of talented players over the past 5 years, and added players gradually who have stayed.

If Giants literally have considerably more income than the Devils, explain why they are not stomping the league by a mile this season.

Guildford Flames will not have the same gate receipt income from their games, but they have proved their worth through club stability, longterm proven coaching and a good core of returning players. It can be done, in a different set of circumstances from the big arena clubs. The Flames are living proof of that.

They got Jones and whistle out injured aswell to add to even more depth

 

[Ocko]

Not saying the Devils don't have a conditioning coach. But clearly the Steelers' regime is keeping their players strong, fast and fit....as many people on here acknowledged and observed when Steelers destroyed our team on Wednesday.

As far as their Brits are concerned, yes,they have one or two dual nationals. But look closer and 3 of the 5 have come through the Steelers' junior system/Okanagan/Canadian Academy hockey system and 4 of them have played for Leeds Knights (including Dowd). What are the Devils doing with their farm team and integrating good young players? We lost Reece Kelly to the Clan, Bailey Harewood is still playing at the next level down (and only appears in Devils dead rubber games), and our Alternate Captain Sam Duggan (another player who had a great junior career abroad) is regularly scratched in favour of other players who don't always deliver.

Yes, Steelers might have a considerable income from gate receipts. And they probably are able to recruit higher calibre players.... something the Devils didn't do, of course, during their league winning seasons! But there is no getting away from the fact that they have retained a good core of talented players over the past 5 years, and added players gradually who have stayed.

If Giants literally have considerably more income than the Devils, explain why they are not stomping the league by a mile this season.

Guildford Flames will not have the same gate receipt income from their games, but they have proved their worth through club stability, longterm proven coaching and a good core of returning players. It can be done, in a different set of circumstances from the big arena clubs. The Flames are living proof of that.

You can’t measure how “strong, fit and fast” a team are when they are just playing a better team.

I don’t get your point about the British players coming through, you’ve listed 3 completely different organisations. Okanagan, Canadian Junior and the Steelers junior system you mention doesn’t even exist. The Steelers don’t have a junior system. They have just signed Brits in the same way we have signed ours from the same organisations. Arguably we have developed our players far more than they have. Their purchase of the Dogs, because they were going to go bust, hasn’t yielded any players yet.

You are giving them far too much credit for developing and building this ‘core’. They signed more new players than we did in the off season, he got his recruitment right but they have thrown money at it.

I also completely agree with Sam Duggan being scratched - he might have a letter on his jersey but like many has massively under performed. It’s between him, Brandt and Chad and I know why two I would pick on any given night.

Ok so you don’t think Belfast have more money than Cardiff? If you believe we are in the same game financially you are deluded. They are owned by the rink operator - free ice time and pull in double the fans. Doesn’t need more explaining than that really.

 

[ASHIPP]

You can’t measure how “strong, fit and fast” a team are when they are just playing a better team.

I don’t get your point about the British players coming through, you’ve listed 3 completely different organisations. Okanagan, Canadian Junior and the Steelers junior system you mention doesn’t even exist. The Steelers don’t have a junior system. They have just signed Brits in the same way we have signed ours from the same organisations. Arguably we have developed our players far more than they have. Their purchase of the Dogs, because they were going to go bust, hasn’t yielded any players yet.

You are giving them far too much credit for developing and building this ‘core’. They signed more new players than we did in the off season, he got his recruitment right but they have thrown money at it.

I also completely agree with Sam Duggan being scratched - he might have a letter on his jersey but like many has massively under performed. It’s between him, Brandt and Chad and I know why two I would pick on any given night.

Ok so you don’t think Belfast have more money than Cardiff? If you believe we are in the same game financially you are deluded. They are owned by the rink operator - free ice time and pull in double the fans. Doesn’t need more explaining than that really.

Read my post, Ocko. Where did I say I didn't believe the Giants have more money than Cardiff? In the final paragraph I acknowledge that the larger arena teams are experiencing a different set of circumstances to other teams. Some have recruited well and I don't doubt that financial investment has played its part.

What I acknowledge is that a core of good, returning players has been accumulated at Steelers over the last 4 years. Their coach is the same. Puts them in a good position.

Like others on here who observed the speed and strength of the Steelers on Wednesday, it would suggest that when opposition players are usually first to the puck, or regularly push your guys off the puck, that a better degree of strength and fitness is needed. It wasn't reciprocated by our lot.

So, deluded I am not but thankyou for your analysis of my state of mind anyway.

 

[Ocko]

Read my post, Ocko. Where did I say I didn't believe the Giants have more money than Cardiff? In the final paragraph I acknowledge that the larger arena teams are experiencing a different set of circumstances to other teams. Some have recruited well and I don't doubt that financial investment has played its part.

What I acknowledge is that a core of good, returning players has been accumulated at Steelers over the last 4 years. Their coach is the same. Puts them in a good position. So, deluded I am not but thankyou for your analysis of my state of mind.

I just don’t see this core of players you are talking about.

There isn’t a single import still in the Steelers side from 4 seasons ago. Just the Brit players, who let’s face it rarely move teams and were there for many years before anyway.

From 3 seasons ago, just Vallerand and the Brits remain. The only season you can call a core would be from last year, but to say they’ve spent years building is way off the mark. They had a half decent squad last season and have added to it with quality players. It’s not been some long term project. They’ve thrown money at their squad in the summer and changed the same amount of players as every other team.

 

[Devil94]

Exactly that. Financially we cannot compete with Sheffield, Nottingham and definitely not Belfast.

Even with their ice rental they are still tens of thousands of £ better off than us every game. Belfast have the same agreement as us, no ice costs etc as they are owned by the operator. They literally have double the income.

I think a lot of Devils fans needs to take note of this. And perhaps lower expectations. The perfect storm we had with the Ownership, Lordo and his recruitment meant we massively overachieved for a few years. You could argue this year so far being 2nd in the league we are still overachieving.
But when I see complaints about us not having the depth Sheffield and Belfast have, or our first line not as effective, defense not as strong, I just think well yeah, duh. Of course. Same goes to why aren't we making big changes or a big mid season signings. How?

 

[ASHIPP]

I just don’t see this core of players you are talking about.

There isn’t a single import still in the Steelers side from 4 seasons ago. Just the Brit players, who let’s face it rarely move teams and were there for many years before anyway.

From 3 seasons ago, just Vallerand and the Brits remain. The only season you can call a core would be from last year, but to say they’ve spent years building is way off the mark. They had a half decent squad last season and have added to it with quality players. It’s not been some long term project. They’ve thrown money at their squad in the summer and changed the same amount of players as every other team.

Yes, 9 returnees from 1 season ago (10 if Petgrave had been included) They have recruited strong additions. Shame for them Connolly retired and DeLuca had been involved in some issues, the core could even have been a bit higher.

 

[Wannabe2]

And to add to this the Flames have had nowhere near the success of the Cardiff Devils. Not even close. The Cardiff Devils had massive success pre Covid, we have just not quite reached those heights since we came back from it.

Financials aside, I have every confidence the owners and management will get us back to the top, it may just take time and patience - but it will happen!! They are winners! I’m also extremely confident that Pete Russell is the right man for the job! For me, thinking that Pete could turn around our fortunes (and it’s not as if we have been a bottom of the table team mind) in just 6 short months is crazy. In what sport, at any level, is this do-able?!

The guys in that locker room will be feeling this more than all of us collectively and as PR said in his interview, they are learning the expectations of the jersey and organisation! If we want success going forward we need to all work together, get positive and get behind this organisation 100%. Or what’s the alternative?? To be honest I get some of the reaction the last couple of weeks and some of it I agree with to some extent, but the overall negativities are so draining! We have all had a bit of a moan now - it’s time to get behind the team!! Our team!!

The Flames have only been in the top league since 2017/18 season, so they wouldn’t have the same success as Cardiff.

 

[Finny]

They have the same amount(11) of players who have played AHL as us, in fact the devils players have played more games in the AHL than the Sheffield players.

True, but most Sheffield imports have a decent number of AHL appearances (30+) whilst of ours only 5 hit that mark.

Ciampini(116), Allen(62), Simpson(55), Tansey(45), Balmas(44), Saucerman(42), Watling(34), Nicholls(22), Vallerand(11), Neumann(4), Cormier (2). Plus Greenfield was twice called-up but never got ice time.

For the Devils:
Arniel(219), Alderson(146), Ully(123) Wilde(42), Mosey(41), Martin(21), Wall(15), Crandall(9), Crawford(8), Busch(5), Donaghey(1),

It’s also worth pointing out that 2nd and 4th in our list joined us mid-season. Both Alderson and Wilde found themselves without a team after the season had started and so are likely to have lesser wage demands as a result. We then have 6 imports who have never played AHL.
Barrow and Brandt have not even played pro-hockey outside of the EIHL.

Compare that to Sheffield’s remaining imports. 2 of whom played extensively in Finland’s top league which is a similar level to the AHL. All that remains is their young backup netminder, defenceman Diffley who played in Denmark last year and Vinnell who they poached off Glasgow mid-season.

It’s hard to argue that isn’t an expensively assembled roster.