My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

[Kipper]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

A question for everyone.

If PR gives in and says screw you all I want out, who is in line to buy him out & take over the running of the club?

If there is nobody im guessing your all prepared to chip in and buy him out then run the club in the EIHL?

all these rumours, ive been told this that & the other, well give names, give full details, stop hiding & just spit it bloody out!

If you're prepared to tolerate the mismanagement and total disregard for and treatment of decent human beings in such a cavalier manner just as long as the club puts out any random collection of individuals on the ice every week that is your choice. My hope is that the current management take heed and start to behave in an ethical and professional manner before they destroy what they have and are left with a worthless entity that whoever follows their tenure will have to rebuild from scratch.

Lastly, what is the club actually worth at present to any prospective buyer? There is very little remaining goodwill to trade on. There is no contract to allow the team to play in the new arena. The club is haemorrhaging sponsors and potential sponsors don't want to be associated with the current car crash. How much would you pay?

Seems you misunderstood a simply question. I don't think ive mentioned agreeing to the what the management are doing, unless your seeing a different question to what ive asked? I asked who would step in to buy the club.

Im not friendly with any past present or future players, management or staff of the club, am not privy to any conversations of what aunty joan has been told by the cleaner, im asking as a pure neutral fan with no emotional baggage attached.

If the club has breached any contract obligations they can be dealt with via a Court surely? If some people have no scruples or humanity towards others there is absolutely sod all I can do to change them & im pretty sure nobody else will change them

As I indicated what is there currently worth buying? There is nothing stopping Paul Ragan carrying on running the club his way as long as he can finance it and he has an ice time agreement. Am I comfortable with his actions. No. It is up to him but I don't have to support his actions.

Do you think it is good practice to sort out employment issues via the Courts or perhaps it shouldn't get to that stage. I can't imagine Joe Myers hiring a barrister over his £50 a week. Doesn't make the way it was done any less palatable.

Some people are prepared to stand idly by and do nothing in the face of wrongdoing and injustice. I am not made like that.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I understand people want to protect their sources but putting it up on forums like this causes hysteria and eventually most of the stuff put up proves to be wrong!

I think 'hysteria' is a bit dramatic, but I take your point. Perhaps readers can / should be trusted to assess the credibility of the information based on the poster?

 

[Gospel]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Kipper - if things have happened & contracts have been breached then yes do it through the courts, that's what they are there for. The amount of money is irrelevant as its the principle of the matter. Im sure PR would not hesitate to take that action. Its no different to a criminal offence being committed and that's why the courts are there and why contracts are drawn up in the first place. If no contract or agreement has been broken then the only issue is how matters have been dealt with on a personal level. People get dumped on all too often these days in every walk of life, employment etc and whilst it might not be palatable things move on. It shows the gutlessness & weakness of some and strengths of others.

Paul - yes people can make their own judgement on the posters who put up this information but for people not in the know, how can they do that? They see one side slating the other and then go by what eventually comes out in the wash, normally weeks/months down the line.

All im asking for, as are most other people, is pure hard and genuine facts on which to form and base a judgement of my own.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Kipper - if things have happened & contracts have been breached then yes do it through the courts, that's what they are there for. The amount of money is irrelevant as its the principle of the matter. Im sure PR would not hesitate to take that action. Its no different to a criminal offence being committed and that's why the courts are there and why contracts are drawn up in the first place. If no contract or agreement has been broken then the only issue is how matters have been dealt with on a personal level. People get dumped on all too often these days in every walk of life, employment etc and whilst it might not be palatable things move on. It shows the gutlessness & weakness of some and strengths of others.

Paul - yes people can make their own judgement on the posters who put up this information but for people not in the know, how can they do that? They see one side slating the other and then go by what eventually comes out in the wash, normally weeks/months down the line.

All im asking for, as are most other people, is pure hard and genuine facts on which to form and base a judgement of my own.

I think the unwillingness to accept that kind of treatment indicates strength, wherever that comes from. Unpalatable is a bit of a 'beige' way of describing the actions this season imo, and irrespective of how rife disrespect has become in hockey, sport or society, we should not accept it at all.

Take your point about newbies but I think our discussion has been centred more around more seasoned readers / posters. I think things like the news item in tomorrow's Echo about the protest, the protest itself, and then subsequent Devils-related online activity, should they wish to seek it out, would provide more than adequate illumination for any interested party.

Oh and for the record there has been one legal battle already this season. It was successful. So on pretty much every ethical and actual level the Club have been found wanting in the 2013-14 'it's our time' season.

 

[Kipper]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Kipper - if things have happened & contracts have been breached then yes do it through the courts, that's what they are there for. The amount of money is irrelevant as its the principle of the matter. Im sure PR would not hesitate to take that action. Its no different to a criminal offence being committed and that's why the courts are there and why contracts are drawn up in the first place. If no contract or agreement has been broken then the only issue is how matters have been dealt with on a personal level.

My point is though Gospel, that the club should not get itself in a situation where recourse to the courts would be necessary. Whatever the outcome it only damages the club's reputation and makes future recruitment more difficult

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

My point is though Gospel, that the club should not get itself in a situation where recourse to the courts would be necessary. Whatever the outcome it only damages the club's reputation and makes future recruitment more difficult

The thing is Kip sometimes there massively public reputational damage is what is required. Because that is the slap in face wake up some people need. At the moment there is a drip drip drip of reputation being pulled away one press release and tweet at a time.

That's why I asked for people to give detailed lists of grievances. All we have otherwise is melting and backbiting.

If the club need to held to account then make them do so. Drag things into the child light of day. If contracts have been breached rather then just poor morality and human decency bring forth a test case.

Otherwise get the players to speak out. One candid interview with Terry can look magnanimous, almost statesman like. Like Joe. Knowing tweets between players actually make them look less professional.

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Which actually beings me to my next point, what is the required action by the club to make amends?

Is thus now solely a push to make Ragan sell? Because I can't support that. It is too extreme a position, you're asking for a man to walk away from something he obviously has a load of pride and ambition in. He may be making mistakes but I don't doubt he thinks he is doing the right thing with his money.

There must be somewhere in the middle that all sides can get to. Somewhere the bad feeling in both camp be put to one side and we can build upon.

"What do we want?"
"Fair and open dialogue, a change in culture and a feeling that the club will do the right thing"
"When do we want it"
"Kick off meeting Tuesday, with change audit board elected and meeting twice weekly until situation is resolved"

Not the snappiest chat, but probably a fair reflection of where this fight should be heading.

 

[Kipper]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Is thus now solely a push to make Ragan sell? Because I can't support that. It is too extreme a position, you're asking for a man to walk away from something he obviously has a load of pride and ambition in. He may be making mistakes but I don't doubt he thinks he is doing the right thing with his money.

This is the point Gar. I don't care who owns the club. My only request is that the club is run with integrity,in an ethical and decent manner.Is that too much to ask? Just don't shaft good people.

Gas coaches, gas players it's the owners call. Just do it properly and with respect for their previous service and commitment.

I'm a fan of the sport not the club per se.I am too emotionally detached during games doing my duties to be a "fan".I watch all ENL2 home games and most ENL1 games. I would watch the Devils if they were in the EPL.

The bottom line for me is respect.The management of any organisation earn respect by their actions and whether they treat their employees,customers and partners with respect.

 

[Gospel]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Kipper - if Court is the way to go then thats what should happen, use the tools that are there. Reading Pauls post it seems someone (maybe Paul himself?) has gone down that route with success.

I like to treat people how i wish to be treated but i also like to be straight and to the point. If some people dont like that then thats tough luck, but if people are not told (maybe like Joe as he says) then i dont agree with that as thats just a chickens way of dealing with matters, but it doesnt make it wrong. It makes the person doing it, in my opinion gutless and weak and with poor moral standards.

Paul - Unpalatable i took from Kippers comments.

Again you seem to have the inside track on whats coming up in the press/social media so i cannot comment until ive seen and read it myself.

I also have to say that at this moment in time i would not want PR to turn his back on the club unless there is someone who is prepared to step in and stump up their cash to run the club. I also will not be attending any protest at this stage.

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

This is the point Gar. I don't care who owns the club. My only request is that the club is run with integrity,in an ethical and decent manner.Is that too much to ask? Just don't shaft good people.

Gas coaches, gas players it's the owners call. Just do it properly and with respect for their previous service and commitment.

I'm a fan of the sport not the club per se.I am too emotionally detached during games doing my duties to be a "fan".I watch all ENL2 home games and most ENL1 games. I would watch the Devils if they were in the EPL.

The bottom line for me is respect.The management of any organisation earn respect by their actions and whether they treat their employees,customers and partners with respect.

This.

I am a hockey fan first. Which is probably why I always seem to be a bit "meh" about the politics around the club - just get a bit annoyed when people make it personal.

I want Cardiff to have entertaining hockey.
I want Cardiff (and every team in the league, and the league itself for that matter) to treat people with respect.

Change coaches, change player - they are professionals and they signed the contracts knowing the risks. I will happily debate the hockey merits of style, players, movements and depth... that is why I love the sport.

But I want all those moves to be done with respect (as Finny put it). I am a Christian (wait, this has a point), the central commandment is Love. Love one another - which can also be translated as respect. Treat your neighbour as you would want yourself to be treated. I ask for no more or less from the club, the players and the fans.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Oh jesus he's brought religion into it. This is going to all kickoff now. I'll get my Kurka, sorry burka.

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Oh jesus he's brought religion into it. This is going to all kickoff now. I'll get my Kurka, sorry burka.

Someone has to... it may as well be me. :Ninja

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

It all makes sense. He's on a mission from God to bring down the Devil (s).

 

[TheStub]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

It all makes sense. He's on a mission from God to bring down the Devil (s).

I though I was the Devil's fluffer?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

ok so as a fan of 25 years I now have to decide should I join this protest.
So looking at the protest points one by one, this is my view.

I can only speak for myself but the overall dissatisfaction and reasons for protest extend to:

The treatment of Phil Hill and the cowardly way it was managed.Well there is no nice way to sack someone but players who do not perform in any sport get sacked.
The treatment of Gerad Adams which, when fuller details are made known (which I am well informed is likely to happen very soon, from an unimpeachable source) will very likely sicken many many fans.Well I don't know these details and don't have any right to know. Thats between the employer and employee. We were losing continously and frankly the dump and chase hockey was getting boring (as many commented). SoI agree with this decision (As much as I like G)
Andrew Conboy. Promised a 2 year contract, to be made franchise player going into the new arena. The next Brad Voth. Sacked within a week, after a public statement that he would remain a Cardiff Devil.Yep that made them look pretty stupid but I believe it was due to a certain Thomas Kurka becoming available. He has been a pleasure to watch so I agree with that decision also.Joe Myers. As loyal a servant and valuable a team-mate as has been seen in a Devils jersey. With no warning, no respect and no justifiable reason he is discarded like leftovers when he has answered the bell every time he was asked.So I don't really understand this one. Joe is an ok goalie but we are not replacing him with someone better unless one of these youngsters is a star. Will wait to see how these youngsters compare with Joe before I decide if this was a good or bad decision.
The Coaching situation in general. The ridiculous okey-cokey need a coach / have a coach / don't need a coach / don't want to be coach / am coach / no news about a coach farce would make PG Wodehouse's head spin. Yep again they aren't very good at PR but maybe they can't find a coach or the spate of home wins that we had at that time under Brent made PR think it is worth keeping Brent. Which leads to:

The PR disaster that is the Cardiff Devils. You may have noticed a pattern above. It's not about the action, it's about the execution.Yep it does seem chaotic but theres nothing I haven't seen before under other management although probably not this much. Respect. Honour. Loyalty.all nice words but WIN is an even nicer word and we were not winning. I haven't seen a player gassed yet that hasn't had at least some criticism from the fanbase Professionalism. These are words that have been demonstrably alien to the current powers that be. The actions have been shabby and amateur but the public displays of incompetence, primary school writing capability (yes the spelling mistakes in the rushed out press statement are embarassing), self aggrandising video drivel and a total, utter and unshakeable belief that nothing has been done even a little poorly (except not firing someone earlier) has made the entire league look at Devils fans, cock their heads and say, 'Awwwwww, bless the poor little loves.' We've been made a source of pity, because ridicule was a long time ago.

The lies. Conboy being a prime example. Brent saying he never wanted to be Coach. He has confessed that he does to several people, including me, for several years. If thats true then Brent told a porky

The disgraceful treatment of several sponsors. Insults, false accusations, lack of attention and disregard for their input. Don't know about this as Im not involved with the club so have to treat it as hearsay or opinionComments made to fans via personal and official social media accounts. 'Cretins' 'Sheffield in disguise' 'not true / real Devils fans' and more.Yes he should rise above the abuse he gets on twitter.

Financial issues. Record ST money. Record sponsorship. Expenses payments to players being confirmed by Brent as being 4 months late, and for thousands of pounds. Again not my business but this has happened under numerous owners, sometimes its financial problems, sometimes dipsutes over expenses.

The recruitment fiasco. More goalies than a Stevie Lyle camp. Forwards when we need a Dman. Dmen when we need forwards. Arbitrary hiring of additional imports when there is a history of being short at this time. Which leads to the latest and very nasty reason I shall be outside.Again this all seems a bit chaotic but Im glad they have signed new players when we have so many injuries.Doing nothing would have been worse.
In the season they fired a Coach in his testimonial.who wasn't winning In the year they fired a guy they were grooming to be our marquee player and in the year they disrespected and fired a loyal hometown goalie, information has been received from several sources around the League that there are 4, and as many as 5, current Devils Import players - all North American - who the Club want to be rid of in the VERY near future. not unusual in a team that is losing. hockey players moan. fact of life.Players who have served us with distinction. Players with huge events upcoming in their lives. Players who are studying here.

Player movements are a part of sport. The manner of them is a matter of professionalism and respect. The only conceivable reason for the additional and rapid intake of our recent signings can be a massive cost-cutting exercise.very probably and protests will not help the financial situation.

These players were promised their contracts would be honoured. They were told there would be no more roster changes. They have placed their careers and part of their futures in the hands of our Club.most employment contracts particularly in sport have performance clauses
So I am sorry for the lengthy post. I feel strongly about this but I have tried to be as cold as I can here. I had a long conversation today with someone who said if I listed my reasons and they made sense he might even join me. So these are mine, and they are heartfelt.

I protest that they may be given what they were promised.
I protest that there will be no more shabby treatment as I have listed above
I protest to illustrate that you should not be able to behave like this as temporary stewards of our once proud Club.

And I protest because I hope with all my heart that we can rid ourselves of this management and finally, mercifully and in unison, look towards our potentially thrilling future with renewed hope.

Yours in hockey

Paul.

So all in all if I am going to protest it would be about chaotic PR, bad spelling and BP telling a porky. Think I will just go and enjoy the game. Too cold to stand outside anyway. However I respect that others see things very differently to me.I just hope the protest respects everyone has their own view and hope that it will be peaceful and non intimidating

 

[Joesteeler]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Does anyone think the management are grooming the devils to the EPL next year with signing all these European players?

If you don't have a European passport you can't play EPL.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

ok so as a fan of 25 years I now have to decide should I join this protest.
So looking at the protest points one by one, this is my view.

I can only speak for myself but the overall dissatisfaction and reasons for protest extend to:

The treatment of Phil Hill and the cowardly way it was managed.Well there is no nice way to sack someone but players who do not perform in any sport get sacked.
The treatment of Gerad Adams which, when fuller details are made known (which I am well informed is likely to happen very soon, from an unimpeachable source) will very likely sicken many many fans.Well I don't know these details and don't have any right to know. Thats between the employer and employee. We were losing continously and frankly the dump and chase hockey was getting boring (as many commented). SoI agree with this decision (As much as I like G)
Andrew Conboy. Promised a 2 year contract, to be made franchise player going into the new arena. The next Brad Voth. Sacked within a week, after a public statement that he would remain a Cardiff Devil.Yep that made them look pretty stupid but I believe it was due to a certain Thomas Kurka becoming available. He has been a pleasure to watch so I agree with that decision also.Joe Myers. As loyal a servant and valuable a team-mate as has been seen in a Devils jersey. With no warning, no respect and no justifiable reason he is discarded like leftovers when he has answered the bell every time he was asked.So I don't really understand this one. Joe is an ok goalie but we are not replacing him with someone better unless one of these youngsters is a star. Will wait to see how these youngsters compare with Joe before I decide if this was a good or bad decision.
The Coaching situation in general. The ridiculous okey-cokey need a coach / have a coach / don't need a coach / don't want to be coach / am coach / no news about a coach farce would make PG Wodehouse's head spin. Yep again they aren't very good at PR but maybe they can't find a coach or the spate of home wins that we had at that time under Brent made PR think it is worth keeping Brent. Which leads to:

The PR disaster that is the Cardiff Devils. You may have noticed a pattern above. It's not about the action, it's about the execution.Yep it does seem chaotic but theres nothing I haven't seen before under other management although probably not this much. Respect. Honour. Loyalty.all nice words but WIN is an even nicer word and we were not winning. I haven't seen a player gassed yet that hasn't had at least some criticism from the fanbase Professionalism. These are words that have been demonstrably alien to the current powers that be. The actions have been shabby and amateur but the public displays of incompetence, primary school writing capability (yes the spelling mistakes in the rushed out press statement are embarassing), self aggrandising video drivel and a total, utter and unshakeable belief that nothing has been done even a little poorly (except not firing someone earlier) has made the entire league look at Devils fans, cock their heads and say, 'Awwwwww, bless the poor little loves.' We've been made a source of pity, because ridicule was a long time ago.

The lies. Conboy being a prime example. Brent saying he never wanted to be Coach. He has confessed that he does to several people, including me, for several years. If thats true then Brent told a porky

The disgraceful treatment of several sponsors. Insults, false accusations, lack of attention and disregard for their input. Don't know about this as Im not involved with the club so have to treat it as hearsay or opinionComments made to fans via personal and official social media accounts. 'Cretins' 'Sheffield in disguise' 'not true / real Devils fans' and more.Yes he should rise above the abuse he gets on twitter.

Financial issues. Record ST money. Record sponsorship. Expenses payments to players being confirmed by Brent as being 4 months late, and for thousands of pounds. Again not my business but this has happened under numerous owners, sometimes its financial problems, sometimes dipsutes over expenses.

The recruitment fiasco. More goalies than a Stevie Lyle camp. Forwards when we need a Dman. Dmen when we need forwards. Arbitrary hiring of additional imports when there is a history of being short at this time. Which leads to the latest and very nasty reason I shall be outside.Again this all seems a bit chaotic but Im glad they have signed new players when we have so many injuries.Doing nothing would have been worse.
In the season they fired a Coach in his testimonial.who wasn't winning In the year they fired a guy they were grooming to be our marquee player and in the year they disrespected and fired a loyal hometown goalie, information has been received from several sources around the League that there are 4, and as many as 5, current Devils Import players - all North American - who the Club want to be rid of in the VERY near future. not unusual in a team that is losing. hockey players moan. fact of life.Players who have served us with distinction. Players with huge events upcoming in their lives. Players who are studying here.

Player movements are a part of sport. The manner of them is a matter of professionalism and respect. The only conceivable reason for the additional and rapid intake of our recent signings can be a massive cost-cutting exercise.very probably and protests will not help the financial situation.

These players were promised their contracts would be honoured. They were told there would be no more roster changes. They have placed their careers and part of their futures in the hands of our Club.most employment contracts particularly in sport have performance clauses
So I am sorry for the lengthy post. I feel strongly about this but I have tried to be as cold as I can here. I had a long conversation today with someone who said if I listed my reasons and they made sense he might even join me. So these are mine, and they are heartfelt.

I protest that they may be given what they were promised.
I protest that there will be no more shabby treatment as I have listed above
I protest to illustrate that you should not be able to behave like this as temporary stewards of our once proud Club.

And I protest because I hope with all my heart that we can rid ourselves of this management and finally, mercifully and in unison, look towards our potentially thrilling future with renewed hope.

Yours in hockey

Paul.

So all in all if I am going to protest it would be about chaotic PR, bad spelling and BP telling a porky. Think I will just go and enjoy the game. Too cold to stand outside anyway. However I respect that others see things very differently to me.I just hope the protest respects everyone has their own view and hope that it will be peaceful and non intimidating

Thanks for responding. Of course you are perfectly entitled to not be as dissatisfied as I am by the conduct of the Club. Those are my reasons and I have not and will not project them onto others. There are those who have said they feel the same way, there are those who will not.

One point I would like to correct though - when Andrew Conboy was fired, it was After Kurka had signed and was playing for us, and after he had both privately and publicly been told he was going to remain a Cardiff Devil. It was not because Kurka became available.

That's not 'sport' thats at best incompetent, and at worse deceitful and devious.

Also let us not fall into the trap of thinking Kurka was good recruitment. It was good shopping. The finances paid to Kurka were simply not available to Gerad, and they are by the club's own admission, record-breaking. At almost any point in any season, if you have the kind of money given to Kurka available to you, you can sign a stud. In no way is this a criticism of Tomas. He is a fantastic player and a first class individual, who I love to watch play the game. but if we are going to be able to talk about players who leave like assets, that can apply to those who remain also I think.

Finally, yes there is more detail yet to be made fully public. I am aware of more than I have posted but it is not my place to reveal this information. Just as frustrating for me as those wanting more and I do not wish to post 'IKSYDK'. As mentioned though, more is imminently going to be revealed, I am told.

Regarding sponsor treatment, there are several e-paper trails for that, and I am certain some of them will surface in due course also.

Enjoy the game Thursday, and thanks again for responding.

 

[Tad#]

Re: Devils @ Stars - 24th Jan 7:30pm - Chat / Updates

There's a rumour going around a Cardiff player is heading to Coventry.

The names guessed are Myers, Blight and Marsh.

 

[nmase20]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Not a player but.... Brent Pope?

what?? a man can live in hope can't he?

 

[Chris]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The lies. Conboy being a prime example. Brent saying he never wanted to be Coach. He has confessed that he does to several people, including me, for several years. If thats true then Brent told a porky

And that seems to be backed up by this from twitter... (I might be behind the times here, I rarely log into twitter these days other than for F1 news (Almost go time! )

Andrew Conboy ‏@andrewconboy88 Jan 23

@Myersthegoalie keep your head up bud, good things happen to good people. I'm guessing Pope wedged a knife in your back #feelyourpain